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Thread: Information onslaught is severe!

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    Information onslaught is severe!

    I know I can ask a pool builder y questions, but I feel that they will answer my questions with the products they sell and not what the best choice should be.
    So, I'd like to ask some unbiased people their opinions.
    My pool to be: 20x44 x 9' deep rectangle liner, swg, 3 Led intellibrite, Cartridge filter
    #1. Pool equipment brand preference ? (Hayward or Pentair)
    #2. Variable speed or multi speed pump?
    #3. Brand of diving board? 8' long
    #4. Winter safety cover brand?
    #5. Foam under vinyl over steel steps? Thickness of foam on sides of pool?
    #6. Wait over winter before doing patio around pool? One PB says no need as they wet and compact every 8" of backfill.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated!
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    1. Any of the major mfg's are about on a level playing field. I would look at the availability of parts and service in the local area and that would be the driver for my decision.
    2. Your electric cost and what, if any, water features you have or want.
    3. I'm totally against diving boards so I'll defer.
    4. The brand doesn't matter if you're just looking at a common winter cover. If you're looking at a safety cover, Loop-Loc has a good reputation.
    5. No experience there. I'd think at least ¼".
    6. If you don't mind waiting it's usually a good idea for more than just the compaction of he base. That also allows time to ensure there's not a problem with the pool, plumbing, electrical, etc. However, a lot of people have it done immediately and have no issues at all.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    1. Any of the major mfg's are about on a level playing field. I would look at the availability of parts and service in the local area and that would be the driver for my decision.
    2. Your electric cost and what, if any, water features you have or want.
    3. I'm totally against diving boards so I'll defer.
    4. The brand doesn't matter if you're just looking at a common winter cover. If you're looking at a safety cover, Loop-Loc has a good reputation.
    5. No experience there. I'd think at least ¼".
    6. If you don't mind waiting it's usually a good idea for more than just the compaction of he base. That also allows time to ensure there's not a problem with the pool, plumbing, electrical, etc. However, a lot of people have it done immediately and have no issues at all.
    Thanks Bama.
    1. Both are readily available. So that is good news not to worry so much on that.
    2. No water features, I've just heard the multi speed versions are less likely to malfunction. Electricity is pretty cheap in NE, but I'm more worried about maintenance issues.
    3. Why? Injury? What if there is plenty of space and depth? 20' wide and 44' long and 9' deep.
    4. Loop loc is popular, but didn't know if you paid just for the name.
    5. One guy is using 1/8" Another is using 1/2" on the bottom and 1/8" on the sides. Both are using vermiculite.
    6. We think our install will be in October so waiting till spring doesn't bother us at all. I see multiple benefits of waiting through a freeze/thaw before putting patio in.

    Thank you for the advice.
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    We are getting prices now on safety covers...PRICEY... We were getting prices for Merlin.
    18k: IG: Black Granite Liner: Aspen: 16x33.5: SWG: Polaris 280

    My pool build new-pool-build-in-nh-t60957.html

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    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    1/2" on the bottom?

    I have a blue foam maybe it is 1/4" on my pool sides, and steps and swim-outs. There is nothing on the bottom. Think of it like this. Place a sheet of paper on your table, and try to poke a hole in it with a pencil. Now take the same sheet of paper, place it on 1/4" of foam and try to poke a hole in it.

    I like the feeling of the foam on the walls and steps. It might be nice to have on the bottom too, but i think toenails would cause some problems.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Doobs...the auto over quotes for me have all been around $14,000. A bit too steep for me. Just noticed you said safety cover...about 3k.

    I need to reconfirm the foam thickness. But 1/8 seems too thin to me. 1/2 seems to thick, but maybe with 30,000 gallons of water, it might compress?
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    My 20x40x9 pool has a diving board and I would consider it just about the minimal size pool for a diving board, caution is still needed to not impact the slope when diving toward the shallow end, and it is very possible to reach the bottom with any more streamlined diving position. So if a diving board is a must (make sure your home owners insurance will cover one, it is the general experience around here that about 1/3 of insurance companies will not, and another about 1/3 will charge you a lot extra if you have one). If a diving board is important to you I would strongly consider going with at least 10 or preferably 11 ft for the deep end and maximizing the length of the slope, in my pool the greatest potential impact point on the slope (kissing the bottom) is about 20 feet out from the deep end edge in about 5 feet of water.

    Ike

    p.s. as to your numbered questions:

    1, like has been mentioned all are "good" between Hayward and Pentair, I would tend to say Pentair is fancier, but priced higher, this is not to say there is anything wrong with Hayward, just that their products tend to be more no frills.

    2, I have never heard anything about multi speed being more reliable, but even if there is a little truth in this which I somewhat doubt given the price difference you could replace the motor on a 2 speed once or maybe twice for the added cost of the variable speed motor. (motor replacement on most pumps can be done without disconnecting plumbing from the wet end, and only takes 15-20 minutes, 4 bolts, unscrewing the impeller and rewiring so is not that big of deal)

    5, padded bottoms can be more prone to puncture (think about writing on a piece of paper on a hard surface vs on a soft one), my pool has padded side walls, but no padding on the pool krete bottom
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    My insurance company has approved a diving board with no additional costs.
    The point of contact would be at 24' as opposed to your 20' out. That's exactly why we extended the length 4'.
    Is the puncture comparison that you point out from experience? Has anyone actually reported this issue? I understand the analogy but would think this problem would be more prone on the sides of the pool, where contact with pool toys and kicking feet would be more common. And all the pool builders put the foam on the sides.
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  9. Back To Top    #9
    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    I have yet to see pictures of pools with foam on the bottom incurring punctures there. I have seen pictures of half moon snapped cuts caused by toenails in foam lined walls. I've only been reading this forum for 2 years so I could easily have missed them.

    Ask the person recommending foam on the bottom if it will increase the chances of people forcefully pushing off the floor causing liner creep or wrinkles.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

  10. Back To Top    #10
    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    I have noticed a few spots on my walls that look like the foam collapsed. Now that could be that gunite behind the foam not being perfect. However, it that slight depression were on the floor I know it would gather fine dirt, I wonder it it would be an issue for a pool cleaner?
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Quote Originally Posted by BQ
    Doobs...the auto over quotes for me have all been around $14,000. A bit too steep for me. Just noticed you said safety cover...about 3k.

    I need to reconfirm the foam thickness. But 1/8 seems too thin to me. 1/2 seems to thick, but maybe with 30,000 gallons of water, it might compress?
    Yeah I was quoted Merlin smartmesh with the padding for the coping installed at $4400.
    18k: IG: Black Granite Liner: Aspen: 16x33.5: SWG: Polaris 280

    My pool build new-pool-build-in-nh-t60957.html

  12. Back To Top    #12

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Ok. Just went and looked at some pools...one is 10' deep. Would there be anything to be concerned with going that deep? I loved it!
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  13. Back To Top    #13
    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    I can't recall any specific cases of puncture from padding under the bottom, as to diving as long as your deep end profile is extended it should help matters. Often though you will see people lengthening pools to make larger shallow ends.

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
    ~Remember TFP counts on your donations to keep this site ad free~

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Ok. Next question. Is 2" piping that much better?
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    There is some debate on the exact amount of improvement for 2 inch, but I can tell you it will almost certainly lower the amount of strain on the pump, and it only costs a little more than 1.5 inch, so to me it is a no brainer (note I am stuck with 30+ year old 1.5 inch, which does work). Think of it like this even if it costs you an extra $100 to go with 2 inch, it will pay itself back over the life of the pool even if it only saves you $1 per month in electricity and pump ware, my gut feeling is it will save you more than that if you could calculate all those hard to determine factors, like possibly extending the life of the pump motor, etc.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
    ~Remember TFP counts on your donations to keep this site ad free~

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Quote Originally Posted by BQ
    Ok. Next question. Is 2" piping that much better?
    Definitely.

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    PB wants $1200 to go to 2" pipes. Also to increase from 9' to 10' he wants $2,000. Thoughts?
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    In my opinion, for your size pool, I think that the builder should not even consider using 1.5 inch pipe.

    How much total pipe will be used?

    How far from the pool will the equipment be located?

    How many runs of pipe will there be?

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    Don't have the lengths, but nothing drastic for runs. Pad will be ~16' from waters edge. Not sure on other details. 2 skimmers and I think 2 floor drains.
    20 x 44 vinyl IG 44,000 gal, Pentair 3hp vs intelliflo, intellichlor and starite heater.
    8 x 10 viking Royal hot tub
    tf100 test kit with k-1000 kit.

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Information onslaught is severe!

    I'm not sure how they justify 1,200 dollars extra to go to 2 inch pipe. The labor should be close to the same, and the material should not cost that much extra. Of course, you have to consider the overall job price and compare it to the other proposals from other builders. If you think that any line item is excessive, you can always ask for an explanation, or justification. And, everything is negotiable.

    I would have each skimmer run to the pad on its own line, not tied together underground. In my opinion, 1.5 inch should not even be considered.

    16 foot is pretty close, you might want to consider moving it farther away for noise and aesthetic reasons.

    How many returns?

    Will there be a dedicated pressure side cleaner line?

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