Thanks to all forum members who helped me gather info on salt systems. After many hours of reading, consultation with my fiberglass pool contractor, and especially the online article "Seven Secrets Salt Water Pool Sellers Dont Want You to Know" has convinced me a salt system is bad idea for my pool. I'm going to stick with my copper ionization system which has none of SWG potential problems. The best news is I will be saving over $1000 in initial costs by not moving forward with SWG.
I'm forgoing a salt system
- Thread starter DYIpoolguy
- Start date
LOL but please link the actual article you are referring too, goggle search is giving me a bunch of nonsense!
Gee, look who wrote that article, ECOsmarte, makers of "the best non-salt, non-chemical water technology". It's your pool, go whichever way you want, but you will find a hundred people here who will tell you to stay far clear of copper ionization, many of which still have the stains and green hair to back up their opinions.
About the only shred of truth in that article is that salt cells do need to be replaced periodically. However, every 4-5 years is more typical; not the 2-3 years mentioned in the article (here are the one's I Googled: http://www.ecosmarteusa.com/sevensecrets.html and http://www.articlesbase.com/educati...ol-sellers-dont-want-you-to-know-1327313.html). Both articles are essentially identical and biased (see author info). I wouldn't put much stock in this article. The way they keep hyping on CYA, you would think that it gets consumed as fast as chlorine on a sunny pool in AZ and that you would need to add more CYA each day. Even their CYA ranges are way off. LOL!
Plenty of members on this board as well as people I know have SWG and none of them experience any of these problems.
Plenty of members on this board as well as people I know have SWG and none of them experience any of these problems.
Good luck with that. I researched it when I built my pool last year. The idea doesn't hold water. Read some more.
So many sales folks just don't know when to stop. LA COUNTY OUTLAWS SWCG RETROACTIVELY!! really refers to a small community, Santa Clarita Valley, that was told by the state that they have a salt problem with their sewer system. Santa Clarita does not agree that they have problem, but face state fines if they do not do something. I read the ordnance, and I can't find that it was retroactive - just no new hook ups. They also are doing away with water softeners. I agree that there are places where a SWCG are not appropriate, but it is not LA COUNTY!!!
If one of the SEVEN SECRETS!!! Is full of half truths and exaggerations, I'd think twice about giving the OTHER SIX!!! too much credence.
Mike ( with a SWCG!!)
If one of the SEVEN SECRETS!!! Is full of half truths and exaggerations, I'd think twice about giving the OTHER SIX!!! too much credence.
Mike ( with a SWCG!!)
Well, to be slightly fair to the article, much of what is said in that article is exactly what is taught here. CYA levels need to be maintained at the right level, pH needs to be maintained between a specific range, and it is not zero maintenance. You still need to maintain your water balance with a good test kit. The way it is written is definitely in the FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) vein, but not much was an outright lie, many exaggerations though.
In other words, if you study pool school, and know how to balance your water according to what is taught there, most all of the 'secrets' are moot because you are already taking care of your water chemistry so the problems don't arise. All of us here with SWG's know it isn't zero maintenance, that is why we test our FC, if it needs adjusting, we understand our pool well enough to add bleach and adjust the settings to minimize maintenance.
Edit, one obvious fallacy is where he mentions the negative health benefits of absorbing salt through the skin without linking any kind of scientific papers that prove this. From basic biology, we know that the concentration of salt in the blood is about 9000 ppm, our pool has maybe 4500 ppm. Your sweat has more ppm than the pool does, so how the heck are you possibly going to absorb more salt, through your skin? Basic chemistry says salt migrates from high concentrations to low concentrations. Seawater is a completely different discussion being it is around 35,000 ppm, maybe he has a point about prolonged contact with seawater, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with SWG maintained pools.
In other words, if you study pool school, and know how to balance your water according to what is taught there, most all of the 'secrets' are moot because you are already taking care of your water chemistry so the problems don't arise. All of us here with SWG's know it isn't zero maintenance, that is why we test our FC, if it needs adjusting, we understand our pool well enough to add bleach and adjust the settings to minimize maintenance.
Edit, one obvious fallacy is where he mentions the negative health benefits of absorbing salt through the skin without linking any kind of scientific papers that prove this. From basic biology, we know that the concentration of salt in the blood is about 9000 ppm, our pool has maybe 4500 ppm. Your sweat has more ppm than the pool does, so how the heck are you possibly going to absorb more salt, through your skin? Basic chemistry says salt migrates from high concentrations to low concentrations. Seawater is a completely different discussion being it is around 35,000 ppm, maybe he has a point about prolonged contact with seawater, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with SWG maintained pools.
Good luck. We will still be here with sparkling pools when your turns green from not enough chlorine in the pool and/or your pool/hair starts staining.
You must use chlorine in combination with the copper, and you should not use lower than we recommend. So, if you have to do that anyway, why pay for the copper system and add the risk? How that makes sense to people boggles my mind.
You must use chlorine in combination with the copper, and you should not use lower than we recommend. So, if you have to do that anyway, why pay for the copper system and add the risk? How that makes sense to people boggles my mind.
jblizzle said:
And have your wife or daughters hair turn green. They tend to be not so forgiving about that kind of thing. Everything you need to know about the effects of what is in your pool, including metal ions, is available here. Everything you should know to realize that that article was complete FUD is also here. It is your choice and your pool to do with as you please. We only seek to educate.
Are you going to use copper ionization with no chlorine in the pool at all? Metal ions (copper and silver) kill pathogens much more slowly than chlorine, do not inactivate all viruses and for some it is again very slow. However, for copper alone, fecal bacteria are not handled, not even slowly. See this post for technical details on kill times and links to sources explaining why copper ions do not handle fecal bacteria.
A partial list of threads complaining of copper staining and green hair from those using copper sulfate or copper ionization is here (we get several of these every year):
copper and green hair...
Copper (maybe) and the rave ready neon gray hair
Copper and Green Hair
SWG and Green Hair??
green is in...but not for hair. Sequestrant?
HELP!!! Green hair!
Intex SWG with Copper question.
My hair has turned green!
Bathing Suits Turning Green
Green scale on copper blocks inside Intex SWG
Re: NJ - Pool Newbie - Advice Welcome
Grass under pool and SWG with Ultra Frame
Intex Sand Filter w/ SWG and stupid Copper
Re: Just setup and turned on Intex SWG
:
:
This paper explains how and why copper ions turn blond hair green.
Furthermore, the copper ionization system does not oxidize bather waste -- it does not have an ozonator or boron-doped diamond electrode advanced oxidant system. Some, such as the ECOsmarte system in the article link you found, use a standard electrolysis system (titanium electrodes) that produces mostly oxygen gas and a small amount of chlorine (how much depends on the actual chloride salt level in your pool), but not enough chlorine to provide a significant disinfecting residual unless your pool is small relative to the size of the unit. So you will be soaking in your own sweat and urine as urea, creatinine and other chemicals will build up over time.
So you are making your decision on the basis of an article from a manufacturer of copper ionization with a financial interest to bash other systems and you are listening to the advice of your fiberglass pool contractor over the rational unbiased information provided on this forum from users without a financial interest in any particular system. Did your fiberglass pool contractor refer you to the dangers of using copper ions alone without chlorine? Did he refer to the problems of having the copper concentration or the pH getting too high with regard to staining?
If you were deciding between a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) system vs. other automated chlorine dosing systems such as peristaltic pumps or The Liquidator or manual dosing, then that would be one thing, but copper ionization? Copper is an algaecide, not a swimming pool disinfectant, and since chlorine also kills algae you can use chlorine alone for both disinfection and prevention of algae. If you really wanted to use an algaecide as insurance, there are other ones you can use without side effects, such as Polyquat 60 weekly -- not necessary, but if you wanted to use it there would be no risk of staining pool surfaces or turning blond hair green.
As for the copper plumbing, it should all be connected to a bonding wire already so you could readily protect it with a sacrificial zinc anode, but you didn't even consider other automated dosing systems that do not require higher levels of salt.
By the way, since you already have a copper ionization system and have decided to keep it and are apparently happy with that decision, then why were you considering a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) in the first place? In this post you wrote (bold emphasis mine):
A partial list of threads complaining of copper staining and green hair from those using copper sulfate or copper ionization is here (we get several of these every year):
copper and green hair...
Copper (maybe) and the rave ready neon gray hair
Copper and Green Hair
SWG and Green Hair??
green is in...but not for hair. Sequestrant?
HELP!!! Green hair!
Intex SWG with Copper question.
My hair has turned green!
Bathing Suits Turning Green
Green scale on copper blocks inside Intex SWG
Re: NJ - Pool Newbie - Advice Welcome
Grass under pool and SWG with Ultra Frame
Intex Sand Filter w/ SWG and stupid Copper
Re: Just setup and turned on Intex SWG
:
:
This paper explains how and why copper ions turn blond hair green.
Furthermore, the copper ionization system does not oxidize bather waste -- it does not have an ozonator or boron-doped diamond electrode advanced oxidant system. Some, such as the ECOsmarte system in the article link you found, use a standard electrolysis system (titanium electrodes) that produces mostly oxygen gas and a small amount of chlorine (how much depends on the actual chloride salt level in your pool), but not enough chlorine to provide a significant disinfecting residual unless your pool is small relative to the size of the unit. So you will be soaking in your own sweat and urine as urea, creatinine and other chemicals will build up over time.
So you are making your decision on the basis of an article from a manufacturer of copper ionization with a financial interest to bash other systems and you are listening to the advice of your fiberglass pool contractor over the rational unbiased information provided on this forum from users without a financial interest in any particular system. Did your fiberglass pool contractor refer you to the dangers of using copper ions alone without chlorine? Did he refer to the problems of having the copper concentration or the pH getting too high with regard to staining?
If you were deciding between a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) system vs. other automated chlorine dosing systems such as peristaltic pumps or The Liquidator or manual dosing, then that would be one thing, but copper ionization? Copper is an algaecide, not a swimming pool disinfectant, and since chlorine also kills algae you can use chlorine alone for both disinfection and prevention of algae. If you really wanted to use an algaecide as insurance, there are other ones you can use without side effects, such as Polyquat 60 weekly -- not necessary, but if you wanted to use it there would be no risk of staining pool surfaces or turning blond hair green.
As for the copper plumbing, it should all be connected to a bonding wire already so you could readily protect it with a sacrificial zinc anode, but you didn't even consider other automated dosing systems that do not require higher levels of salt.
By the way, since you already have a copper ionization system and have decided to keep it and are apparently happy with that decision, then why were you considering a saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) in the first place? In this post you wrote (bold emphasis mine):
but then in this thread you now say:
So what about "the copper ionization system I am unhappy with"? What exactly are you unhappy about and why is it not still a problem? Something does not make sense here. Perhaps we should start over with you telling us what you don't like about your current system since that will give us an idea of what is and is not important to you. It's your pool and you can do whatever you want with it, but for some people convenience is more important than cost, while some people are more concerned about safety than others.