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Thread: resource for borax?

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    nuklhed's Avatar
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    resource for borax?

    Seeking direction from community, need resource for generic borax.
    Finally got feedback from brand "20 Mule Team", now owned by Dial (soap), which in turn is owned by Henkels. I was sent to two websites which do not exist. Staff barely aware of their own product line. Downsizing in pursuit of economy, all intelligence squeezed out of the system.
    AFAICT, all "Boraxo" products are blends, this from Dial source, verbatim: "Dial 02203 Boraxo Powdered Hand Soap 5 lb Box Specifications Capacity : 5 lb Packing Type : Box Weight : 5.60 lb Features A select blend of quality soap and borax that is gentle on hands."
    Sent reply inquiry for bulk source, awaiting response.
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: resource for borax?

    Why generic borax (not sure it exists)?

    If you have to order online (don't you have walmarts in your area?), then I would go the boric acid route. Dudadiesel is typically the cheapest.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: resource for borax?

    That's boraxo. You want Borax. I just picked up a box Monday at the grocery store.

    Ingredients says: Sodium Tetraborate. That's it. http://www.20muleteamlaundry.com/
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: resource for borax?

    It's getting EXTREMELY hard to find in my area (Massachusetts). Only one little store in the next town over from me has it. And even then its sporadic.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Richard, is that a standard 4.whatever pound box of Borax? It looks larger than the ones I get, which are tall and skinny.
    John
    7 year old ~13,500 gal 24' AGP with 1.5 hp Proline pump, 150 sqft Pleatco cartridge, filled with well water with pH of about 4.5.
    Wanda the Whale pool vacuum, home made heater, Taylor K-2006
    Cloudy Pool? 1) Order test kit. 2) Follow SLAM
    New to TFPC? Read Pool School a few times, then post questions. PoolMath will help with chemical additions.

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    Re: resource for borax?

    They have changed their packaging to the tall and skinny boxes and a slightly different color.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
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    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Ace hardware supplied mine. HTH
    24' round/52" deep Leisure Bay AG est. 13.5k gallons
    Hayward TS180 Sand Filter

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    Re: resource for borax?

    I called all over Vegas, nobody carries basic product -- if at all, it's "Boraxo" Not even commercial laundry suppliers to hotels and casinos.
    Wiki tells us "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" -- 'cause it attracts (and holds) TEN water molecules. Kinda hard to square that in the mind, knowing most abundant resource is Death Valley, CA. Most curious are nature's ways.
    Hate to think of delivery cost if only bulk resource is online. Maybe Ace Hdwe best of all.
    Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    Jeepers boys!! If I calculate my pool right, I get something like 100 lbs of borax required to even get near the 50ppm target.
    Can it be said that a little borate offers a little bit of help?... that it's a straight-line relationship?... up to full benefit at 50ppm?
    My water already has a big dissolved junk-load. I'd like to sneak up on any additions to it.

    -- da nuklhed
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Quote Originally Posted by nuklhed
    Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.
    I am assuming you are wanting to add borates to your pool and not just raise ph when needed?

    From dudadiesel it would cost you 121.38 total (75 for the boric acid and 46.38 for shipping to las vegas) for 55 lbs of boric acid which would raise your 25000 gallon pool to about 46 ppm borates which is just perfect. There may be other places closer with lower shipping costs.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    nuklhed, now that you have started a thread (which was the right thing to do) about this here, let's have this discussion there.

    Posts moved. JasonLion
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Quote Originally Posted by nuklhed
    I called all over Vegas, nobody carries basic product -- if at all, it's "Boraxo" Not even commercial laundry suppliers to hotels and casinos.
    Wiki tells us "sodium tetraborate decahydrate" -- 'cause it attracts (and holds) TEN water molecules. Kinda hard to square that in the mind, knowing most abundant resource is Death Valley, CA. Most curious are nature's ways.
    Hate to think of delivery cost if only bulk resource is online. Maybe Ace Hdwe best of all.
    Anyone care to hip-shoot quantity for my pool?... approx. 25,000 gal., TDS 800.
    http://www.walmart.com/ip/20-Mule-Team-Borax-Laundry-Booster-76-oz/20850525

    Some of the Las Vegas stores are out, and some have limited stock, but it is available.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: resource for borax?

    12x20x52 AG ~6000 gallons (2ft bury), Waterway PH2100-6 1HP 2 spd pump, Hayward Xtreme 100sqft filter,
    Pool Pilot Digital Nano Plus SWG 5/2014, Hayward Heat Pump HP50HA 8/2014, Wanda the Whale cleaner

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Market Basket carries it in Mass Bk46
    Nathan
    15x30 gunite 18k gallons Hayward star clear plus 120sqft cart

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Quote Originally Posted by FamilyGuy
    Market Basket carries it in Mass Bk46
    Good to know. Only place I found it is at hanefords in uxbridge. Closest market basket is about 10 miles from me in Oxford next to Home Depot.
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Tip of hat to VladSI for Amazon tip. Still packed in case (6) 4-lb boxes, but only $31/case and freight is FREE [isn't that a lovely word?] for Prime members. Whole deal for 4 cases - 96 lbs = $124. Much better, but I'll still keep bangin' the web for a distributor sourced in bags -- seems to me that a-buck-a-pound should be plenty of money. Salt is only 25c and it's even harder to dig up.
    Dudadiesel has 55-lb buckets of boric acid ($75 + shpg) but I still have no feedback from community on the chemistry. Is the formula the same, is the effect the same, is the result the same? Who says?
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    LOVE the chemistry lesson, ChemGeek. Worth its weight in gold. Reducing the NaCl is especially cool, with the saving on HCl a bonus.
    Please extend your comments regarding dosage... haven't seen a formula and don't trust my interpolation.
    Now, armed with this unimpeachable knowledge, we can set out to find a local bulk resource for boric acid. Freight from dudadiesel to Vegas is about $50. Ouch.
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    62 lb boric acid added to 26,000 gallons will raise the borate from 0 to 50 ppm. You can use the pool calculator to find the correct dosage.
    calc.html

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    Re: resource for borax?

    Quote Originally Posted by nuklhed
    ... but I still have no feedback from community on the chemistry. Is the formula the same, is the effect the same, is the result the same? Who says?
    As shown in this post, borax produces the same identical boric acid in the water that boric acid directly added produces. The effects are identical except that using Borax and acid adds some salt. Of course, Borax by itself raises the pH substantially which is why one also adds acid while using boric acid only slightly decreases the pH.

    The choice is really about cost and convenience. Generally, borax plus acid is somewhat less expensive, but more weight, two separate things to add to adjust for pH, and increases the salt level somewhat (not an issue). So boric acid is more convenient but somewhat more expensive.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    nuklhed's Avatar
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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    Thanks again for that feedback. More questions:
    I've got to get a test kit, but the selection is confusing. I see the Taylor 2006C has the larger-sized reagents but best price I found is $89 from Amazon, and their description doesn't specify is as "FAS-DPD".
    Amazon does have the Taylor 2006, which they do specify is FAS-DPD, and only costs $52
    I see the TF-100 at tftestkits.net is NOT specified as FAS-DPD, but is priced in the middle at $68, so I need to know if it is directly comparable to the Taylor 2006C ?
    I would like to solve the problem the smartest way and save the dough, but I haven't seen any specifics about size of reagents in the TF-100.
    What is the smart move here?... where is the value? Do I really need the FAS-DPD capability?

    Still more: I should ask if these reagents weaken over time? With a single pool I'll probably only test once a week, and probably take at least a year to chew thru them all. Perhaps larger quantities of reagents will start giving erroneous results after they get old? I will store them in the bottom of a kitchen cabinet, not exposed to excess heat or moisture. What should I know about shelf life? I see the 18-month warranty at tftestkits.net, which is reassuring.
    23,000g IG plaster, slate tile and masonry cascades. Three levels, two pumps: (upper wading 12" dp, with 3.5-ft slate cascade); secondary (double 2-ft waterfall cascades); lower main swimming, two skimmers. New Ultraflex II. Hayward: 3hp pump, 4-cartridge filter. Las Vegas, NV (desert enviro). Water temp: winter avg. 45f, summer avg. 86f. Water service: private well, TDS hard @ 250+ppm but NO Ca+ !! Persistent mustard algae.

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