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Thread: Bonding wires: What do I have?

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    Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Hi again,

    I'm in the final stages of wiring as the result of relocating my inground pool equipment.

    As some may recall, the original wiring was done to older / outdated code. For instance my 220v filter pump motor was (hard) wired without a ground and off a standard NON-GFCI breaker...this was done through an Intermatic timer. I have since run a separate ground conductor for the motor, also through the Intermatic timer. Also, the circuits run through the PVC conduit are now all GFCI protected.

    I also moved the Deck Box by extending the 1/2" brass pipe. Here's where I have questions.

    When dissembling the original Deck Box installation I noted a #8 , insulated (green) wire connected to a lug inside the Deck Box. I also noted the ground wires from the two niche lights and convenience outlet attached to a lug on the other end of the box.

    Problem is the #8 wire, which fed into the Deck Box through a short piece of PVC conduit, went nowhere. It had been cut. Also noted was a #8, (green) insulated wire (same type of wire as described above) coming out from under the brick pool deck, near the niche light brass conduit, convenience outlet PVC conduit and all PVC feed/return piping. It was also cut and attached to nothing.

    So, my questions are:

    - Is the wire from under the brick deck from the stainless steel niche light fixture? If so, isn't the brass pipe/conduit supposed to be the bonding vehicle for the light? I believe my niche has a bonding lug accommodation (see pic)

    - If not from the light is the wire from under the deck from the bonding grid of the pool structure, metal accessories etc ?

    - Could the #8 wire attached to junction box lug (and goes nowhere) be the wire that is to be used to bond the motor case and other metallic equipment?
    OR
    - Perhaps this wire was once connected to a ground rod (haven't looked for one but thinking it would be obvious). It seems this might be the case since the Lug for this #8 wire and the lug for the equipment grounds are basically (electrically) connected through the brass Deck Box chassis. My understanding is that the Bonding wire and equipment grounds are to be electrically separate as they serve different purposes.

    Any thoughts on what I've found?






    -
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    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Melt In The Sun's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Not sure about the bonding....sorry.

    I know it's not what you asked, but I can see in the last picture that you used DWV (drain, waste, vent) elbows in your plumbing. Those aren't SCH 40 (not rated for high pressure) and I'd recommend replacing them before you bury the pipes.
    11,200 gal, Pebble-Tec; Tristar 2-speed 1hp - Swimclear 325 ft2 cart - SWG - A & A in-floor cleaner - Heat pump. For the poolside cooking, a Yoder Wichita and a Big Steel Keg!
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Chances are that wire coming out of the junction box is supposed to be connected to the niche bonding wire. Also the wire you found coming from under the deck should be connected to the grid somewhere. In the US the bonding and grounding isn't required to be connected, but it's not prohibited from being connected.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Melt in the Sun: Thanks for the heads up. I didn't realize those weren't Sch 40. I only used 2 or 3. Reason I used was because they have a longer arc and I figured they would be freer flowing.
    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Chances are that wire coming out of the junction box is supposed to be connected to the niche bonding wire. Also the wire you found coming from under the deck should be connected to the grid somewhere. In the US the bonding and grounding isn't required to be connected, but it's not prohibited from being connected.
    This is where I'm confused. I though the brass conduit from the niche was used instead of a wire.
    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Here's the Deck Box after removing the cover...
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    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    OK I see it better now. That bare wire should be connected to the bonding loop. And you're right about the conduit being the bonding vehicle.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Bama, Thanks for the reply. This makes sense, to a degree (in my mind). The two #8 wires appear to be the same exact wire but cut...with ends stripped. I found that interesting. So, it seems logical the wire coming from under the deck connects to the wire you mention.

    What still has me concerned is that the bond wire is electrically connected to the equipment ground via the brass chassis of the deck box. Do you or others have a similar setup? Could it be the previous owner cut the wire for this reason?

    Also, how would I tie the motor bond lug to this point?

    BTW, the pool pump motor is just under 13' from the pool edge, separated by a brick topped concrete deck.
    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    ADD: I just found a Home Inspector site (nachi.org). One gentleman posted a similar question and the members replied that the connection of the two systems (bonding and equipment ground) is pretty much inevitable at a few different points, including at the deck box for the niche light.

    So, can I utilize the extra threaded post in the Deck Box with a Beaver Tail bonding wire connector and run the wire out and over to the pool pump motor? Does the #8 wire have to be uninsulated? Please reference pic.
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    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    The bonding wire needs to be bare. However, tying the bond for the pump to the ground post in the box is not the right way to do it. You should buy a bonding splice (split bolt) and tie the pump bond wire directly to the loop.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Add: Quote: "However, tying the bond for the pump to the ground post in the box is not the right way to do it." I'm not following you here. The pic above shows the addition of an approved bonding lug attached to the deck box exactly like the other bonding lug.

    Also, when I read the code it seems to say that the bond wire needs to be bare where it connects the various structures of the grid together, but not to the equipment....

    Here is the code section on bonding from the 2008 National Electrical Code:

    (B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1)
    through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper
    conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than
    8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified
    corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded
    parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or
    larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce
    voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be
    extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment,
    or electrodes.



    (a) Structural Reinforcing Steel. Unencapsulated structural
    reinforcing steel shall be bonded together by steel tie
    wires or the equivalent. Where structural reinforcing steel is
    encapsulated in a nonconductive compound, a copper conductor
    grid shall be installed in accordance with
    680.26(B)(1)(b).
    (b) Copper Conductor Grid. A copper conductor grid
    shall be provided and shall comply with (b)(1) through
    (b)(4).
    (1) Be constructed of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper
    conductors bonded to each other at all points of crossing



    (b) Copper Conductor Grid. A copper conductor grid
    shall be provided and shall comply with (b)(1) through
    (b)(4).
    (1) Be constructed of minimum 8 AWG bare solid copper
    conductors bonded to each other at all points of crossing
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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    Re: Bonding wires: What do I have?

    Update: Considering the advice given I stripped the end of the Bond wire which protruded from under the brick deck and secured two split-bolt "bugs". Wired one bug directly to the Deck Box and wired the second one directly to the pump motor. I did not wire as shown in the picture above.
    I'll be adding a third as I will be installing an aluminum estate fence around the pool and will need to bond that as well.
    Anthony Pool, 35k gal plaster, DE (1.5hp Ultraflow), Rainbow 320, Dolphin Diagnostic 2001 (Advantage) & Polaris, Retrofitted Anthony mod #20 120v Niche light with Pentair 5G & adapter ring, 70's build / recoped and plastered 1.5 years ago

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