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Thread: Initial TF100 Results

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    Wildcat's Avatar
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    Initial TF100 Results

    First attempt, followed directions as best I could, sure I will get better at it.

    CH above 550. Stopped at 55 drops before I drained the bottle. Hard water here in Tucson, but is this a plausible result? I assume answer is to drain water.
    TA 130 above the acceptable range of 100-120

    PH 7.7 I dump muriatic acid in, need to use more I assume to decrease PH and reduce TA. I also have some dry acid. Is one more effective than the other to reduce TA?

    FC 11.5
    CC 0
    so TC is 11.5 Had a pump go down a couple of weeks ago and did a trichlor shock and increased hockey puck use for the week I was without a pump.

    The basic CL test was deep yellow so I guess it backs up these results on TC.
    Can FC be so high when using pucks? I thought it would be low.
    And I can't remember what 0 CC tells me or if it is good or bad, will search the forum


    Could not do CYA test but I bet it is high. Unusual, but no bright sun in Tucson today.

    When I do CYA test I will start the liquid bleach routine but don't these preliminary results indicate I need to drain water and then adjust PH and TA?

    Other comments from the water doctors on here? I am a little shamed by my results but you have to tell your doctor the truth, right?
    I have never had algae in 5 years of owning this house and pool, knew Calcium was high but not this high. Minor scaling on the tile that we use pumice stone on about once a year. Water was clear but I guess it doesn't sparkle like people talk about here at TFP.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    OK, used the pool calculator.I know what to do to fix my issues of high CH and presumed high CYA.
    But draining 50% or more of the water seems wrong in the desert. i will probably drain 10-20% and see if I can get to more acceptable, if not perfect,numbers. And to keep whatever I gain by draining I will start using liquid bleach
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    CH above 550. Stopped at 55 drops before I drained the bottle. Hard water here in Tucson, but is this a plausible result?
    Yes, it is plausible and it could be even higher since you had to stop at 55 drops. However, some members deal with CH that is in the 800's. Do you need to drain some water? Not necessarily. High CH can be managed by lowering pH and TA from their current levels. See this thread to learn more about managing high CH: http://www.troublefreepool.com/progr...le-t38568.html. The key to managing high CH is to adjust pH and TA to achieve a slightly negative Calcite Saturation Index (CSI) while, at the same time, keeping both TA and pH within their recommended ranges. The Pool Calculator will help you with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    TA 130 above the acceptable range of 100-120
    Yes, it is. Ordinarily, I would say not to lower it solely to reach a target number. But in your case, it can probably stand some lowering to manage the high CH. Again, refer to the Pool Calculator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    PH 7.7 I dump muriatic acid in, need to use more I assume to decrease PH and reduce TA. I also have some dry acid. Is one more effective than the other to reduce TA?
    This is within range, but I would lower it to between 7.2 and 7.5 mainly to help manage the high CH. As for which chemical to use in lowering pH, it is a matter of preference. I prefer liquids, so I use MA. It requires a bit more care to use, though. Remember that lowering pH will also lower TA.

    Unless your CYA is off the charts, an FC of 11.5 will provide sufficient sanitation. In fact, you might be overdosing on FC, but that depends on your CYA level. I would recommend running the CYA test tomorrow even if you do not have clear blue skies. Right now, it is more important to get a handle on the actual CYA level and bright, indirect daylight will provide sufficient lighting. If the CYA turns out to be high (greater than 80) then we can consider draining some water. Unlike high CH which can be managed in other ways, CYA is lowered by replacing water.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    Can FC be so high when using pucks? I thought it would be low.
    Yes it can. Trichlor pucks are a form of chlorine. Add enough of them and it will raise FC significantly. They will also raise CYA in short order. The CYA level is my primary concern with your pool and that needs to be determined ASAP. CYA is also a factor in the CSI calculation, so it also needs to be determined in order to know how much to adjust pH and TA to help manage the CH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    And I can't remember what 0 CC tells me or if it is good or bad...
    0 CC is good.
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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Thanks for the feedback. I was on the path to understanding and you helped confirm my interpretations. Will test CYA tomorrow.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    550 CH is not high for where you live. I'll bet if you test your tap water you'll find it's 200ish. Your CH is not a valid reason to drain. You can control scaling even with CH up into the 800s - I do it! If your CYA is high, that's a good reason to drain some water, though.

    If you plug numbers into the pool calculator, you'll see a box labelled CSI. As long as that number is near zero, give or take about .5, you're fine. If it's higher, then you need to see about correcting it, and if you play with target values on the two easiest things to control - pH and TA, you'll see where you need to be.

    Dry acid will work fine to adjust pH and TA. It just costs more than muriatic acid. Since you have it, use it up.
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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Thanks for the comments about CH. I am afraid my CYA is high, will test tomorrow. If I start using liquid bleach won't CYA come down over time? Won't the 330 days of sunshine per year in Tucson burn it off? Or is that a bad strategy because I will have to over use bleach to keep my FC up while the CYA burns off?
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Nope, CYA only comes down with a drain and refill. Evaporation leaves the CYA in there so concentration stays the same. Sun has no effect on CYA.
    8638 gallon 20'x52" Intex ultra frame round AG. 2650 gph Intex Sand Filter. Intex krystal Klear SWG. (newer model that includes copper ion generation) Hayward 1091LX skimmer, Kreepy Krauly lil shark. Taylor K-2006 w/speed stir and sample sizer. New this year, Intex PureSpa - dichlor-> bleach method for sanitizing.
    New pool, 16'x36' (approx 18000 gal) in ground pool, Haywood DE filter

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    degradation-of-cyanuric-acid-cya-t8880.html

    Found this thread. There was some discussion of anecdotal evidence of CYA reduction in very sunny areas like AZ that could not be explained by dilution. I will get a benchmark, switch to bleach and see if it happens over time. Got to weigh the cost and environmental impact of increased bleach usage while CYA hopefully comes down vs. 50% drain.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results update incl CYA test

    Had a heavy rain in my part of Tucson yesterday afternoon. Was able to drain 6" or more, I know I should drain more but we have another month or so of Monsoon season so I will let the rain help me dilut the water and see how it goes.

    Uodated results

    CH was measureable this time probably due to the dilution.
    TA also dropped a little

    CH 560
    TA 120
    PH 7.6
    FC 12
    CC 0
    TC 12
    CYA regular test estimated at 140-150
    doing test with tap water 180

    About what I expected. After this benchmark day I will only use bleach, no more pucks. Going to try an experiment to see if CYA does or does not drop with all the Arizona sunshine and slow dilution. Depending on results I will either continue with this water saving approach or do a more severe drain and replacement. Off to the pool calculator to see what my FC/CYA balance needs to be!


    Whoa! Checked the FC/CYA chart and it stops at 120 and recommends FC of 13+ for 120 CYA. If I extrapolate that means my FC should be what? 19-20?
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Checked the FC/CYA chart and it stops at 120 and recommends FC of 13+ for 120 CYA. If I extrapolate that means my FC should be what? 19-20?
    Yes, that is pretty close to the unfortunate answer. CYA over 100 becomes virtually unmanageable
    Dave S.
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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Hope it rains some more!

    If I have no algae problems, never in 5 years, is it safe to assume that FC of 12 with CYA of 150-180 works? Or is at the low end and I am asking for trouble?
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    CYA of 150 min FC level is 11ppm
    CYA of 180 min FC level is 14 ppm


    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    OK, thanks. Storm forming over the mountains a few miles away, some thunder. Hopefully it will dump a bit on us soon. Then I'll drain so some more to dilute CYA and add some bleach to raise FC to acceptable limits.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildcat
    OK, thanks. Storm forming over the mountains a few miles away, some thunder. Hopefully it will dump a bit on us soon. Then I'll drain so some more to dilute CYA and add some bleach to raise FC to acceptable limits.
    You can harvest two or three times as much CYA & CH -free water with one of these setups.



    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Good idea, would take some doing at my house as we have no gutters and the spouts where my partial flat roof drains is 10 feet in the air. I will have to invent something I can attach easily during a storm to the 6 inch square spout and remove after the rain passes. I am also concerned that the flat roof collects a lot of dust and stuff in-between our infrequent storms. I would need to put a filter on it too I think.

    BTW, the storm went right around us and dissipated, happens all the time here.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Drained about a foot of water total over two separate days. Stopped using pucks, numbers are moving in the right direction though not there yet.

    CH still high at 650, probably so variation in my test methodas it shouldn't have gone up from 590 but so high it doesn't really matter!
    TA down to 110
    PH 7.5 from 7.6
    FC 11.5
    CC 0
    TC 11.5

    CYA down from 180 to 160
    Going to up the FC some to make sure I stay above the minimum


    Hoping for rain as my tap water is naturally high in calcium, strategy is to do 1-2 foot drain before the next imminent rain storm.
    Except in Tucson area they are very scattered and come up quick so hard to drain fast enough by the time you are 100% sure it will rain!
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Early test vs. today. There are intermediate results too, but just showing these two.
    Yes, CYA still high but I have moved the FC up to compensate until I can do more draining.
    TA down, PH down, CH still high. I have not tested but fill water in the Tucson area I think is 300+.

    8/3 8/29
    CH 650 500
    TA 110 100
    PH 7.5 7.4
    FC 11.5 16
    CC 0 0
    TC 11.5 16
    CYA 160-180 120-130


    I have ventured this before but I lose very little FC over time. I see people reporting 2-6 PPM per day, I seem much more stable.
    I know this is heretical, but maybe there is some advantage to keeping the CYA elevated in very sunny areas ( I am told around 330 sunny days a year here).

    I wil continue to work to get it lower. When I get it acceptable I just hope I am not pouring gallons of bleachin every few days.
    Has anyone gone down this path before and logged their experiences?
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    Your CYA is very high, that is why you see lower FC losses ... the risk is that when something goes wrong it take a LOT of chlorine to go through the SLAM process and likely water replacement.

    The pool company that was maintaining my pool had my CYA up to around 300ppm when I finally took over myself (and replaced 90% of the water ... more than I meant to, forgot about the pump ).

    The recommendations here weigh the risk/reward. You would likely be fine in the 50-60ppm range.

    In case you have not been told this yet, another disadvantage of the high FC is that the pH test is not accurate when the FC > 10ppm ... so keep that in mind. The high FC makes the pH test read higher than reality.
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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    I understand the basics, the nuances still escape me. I understand the risk of not being able to read the PH properly. But the scaling on the tile I get is an indicator of high CH but doesn't it also indicate that my PH isn't too low? It reads 7.4-7.6.


    Also, I understand the morbid fear everyone has of algae and the need to SLAM. One thing I was so surprised by when I found this forum was that so many people had algae problems. But in over 5 years of relative ignorance I have never had a sniff of algae.
    My CYA has been high forever, once had it down to 90 (pool store numbers but their numbers had been over 150-200 before that) and of course it drifted upwards. I am hoping that the benefit of going puckless is that this is the last time I will have to drain assuming I can live happily with CH numbers of 500-800 which I read others have done). I am not challenging the concept of BBB, just commenting that the other way is somewhat sustainable. And it was cost effective for me. My bleach costs are higher now but I hope to save dollars and do the right environmental thing by not having to drain. If I still have to drain for CH, if not in the future for CYA, it will cost me more doing BBB. I was only spending about $70 per year on pucks.
    10000 Gal, IG Pebbletec, pop up cleaners,Hayward EcoStar VS, 425 sq ft Hayward Cartridge, waterfall feature

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    Re: Initial TF100 Results

    I haven't read this whole thread (just the first and your last post) but if your pool maintenance methods are working for you, why would you consider changing?

    It is not our goal to make you change your methods when you seem to be getting good results. Our goal is to teach people what we know works on thousands and thousands of pools, especially teaching those people who have water quality issues.

    BBB has never been about saving money, even though it almost always does. It's about teaching you to understand the parameters that need to be controlled in your pool and what to do about them if you have water quality issues. Your method seems to work for your particular situation and you seem to like it.....why change?
    Dave S.
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