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Thread: electric convenience outlet

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    electric convenience outlet

    Hello.

    I'm getting ready to run the permanent electric runs for the pool. The circuit will have a dedicated GFI in the main panel. I'm working with the electrician across the street from me, so I have knowledgeable help.

    I have the normal outlets planned, pump, light, low voltage lights, and one convenience outlet under the deck (above ground pool) about 12 feel away. I requested another convenience outlet for a radio above the deck on a railing post about 12 feet from the pool's edge. He balked due to having an outlet near the pool.

    So, what is the code for this? Do others have a GFI outlet near the pool? I know people aren't running cords all over the place to power radios, etc. I looked for the National Building Code but couldn't find this. I live in PA and couldn't find anything about PA code either.

    Any thoughts or advice are appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Rich

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    A GFCI convenience outlet is required by code. According to 2005 NEC It is to be installed between 10 and 20 feet from the pool, but I think 2008 Code changed the distances slightly. Here's what mine (somewhat paraphrased) says in 680.22A3:
    ...where a permanently installed pool is installed at a dwelling unit(s), no fewer than one 125-volt 15-20-ampere receptacle on a general-purpose branch circuit shall be located not less than 3.0M (10') from and not more than 6.0M (20') from the inside wall of the pool.
    This receptacle shall be located not more than 6'6" above the floor,platform, or grade level serving the pool.
    The goal is to get a GFCI outlet close enough to the pool so people will use it instead of another one that may not be GFCI protected.
    TFP Moderator
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    That's great. What code is that? National? or State?

    Thanks!!

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    richfiller,

    JohnT is exactly correct in his post.

    The link below shows the 2005 NEC (National Elelectrical Code) Article 680 in its entirety starting on page 17. NEC Article 680 is the section dealing with pools and spas. Many local jurisdictions will not adopt the 2008 NEC for a while. For example, California is usually one NEC code cycle behind - i.e. 3 years or just adopting 2005 NEC right about now. Each jurisdiction is different regarding the timing of NEC adoption. Also PA or your local city/county may have additional requirement above and beyond the NEC, but your electrician should know about these local requirements. Then again, he should have known about NEC Article 680.22(A)(3) requiring the installation of a GFI receptacle within 10-20 feet of a pool.

    http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf

    The text below is the actual text of NEC Article 680.22(A)(3)

    680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
    (A) Receptacles.
    (3) Dwelling Unit
    . At a dwelling unit, one 15 or 20A, 125V receptacle
    must be located not less than 10 ft and not more than 20 ft
    from the water from a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or
    outdoor hot tub. This receptacle must be located not more than 61⁄2
    ft above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the permanently
    installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub.

    The text above is shown on document page 649 (pdf page 20). An illustration of the NEC code sectoon is shown in Figure 680-11.

    I'm getting ready to run the permanent electric runs for the pool. The circuit will have a dedicated GFI in the main panel.
    I'm not sure I understand completely what you are saying here, but if you are talking about the 30 Amp ,#10 gauge(could be larger) circuit from the main panel to the pool subpanel, then this circuit is not REQUIRED to have GFI protection. You certainly COULD install GFI protection, but it is not required.

    Another issue that I just learned about: Low voltage lights are PROHIBITED within 10 feet of the water. See Figure 680-16 on document page 652 (pdf page 22). There are some exceptions discussed in this post. http://www.troublefreepool.com/viewtopi ... ht=voltage

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richfiller
    That's great. What code is that? National? or State?

    Thanks!!
    Even though the NEC is The National Electrical Code, it isn't legally binding. It's merely a collection of good practices. It becomes law when adopted by state or local governments. They often add requirements or modify them, so legally it would be a local code, but ANY US electrician knows that when you say code, you mean the NEC. "680.2 in the code" should be all you have to say for an electrician to know where to look for the info.
    TFP Moderator
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    Awesome!!! Thanks.

    I really appreciate it.

    Regards,
    Rich

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    I goofed when I said:

    The text below is the actual text of NEC Article 680.22(A)(3)

    680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
    (A) Receptacles.
    (3) Dwelling Unit. At a dwelling unit, one 15 or 20A, 125V receptacle
    must be located not less than 10 ft and not more than 20 ft
    from the water from a permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or
    outdoor hot tub. This receptacle must be located not more than 61⁄2
    ft above the floor, platform, or grade level serving the permanently
    installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub.
    Turns out this is NOT the actual NEC text, but rather an easier to understand paraphrased version from the Mike Holt document that I had linked to. JohnT's version in his first response is much closer to the actual NEC text.

    Sorry if I confused anyone.

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  8. Back To Top    #8
    TI,


    I'm not sure I understand completely what you are saying here, but if you are talking about the 30 Amp ,#10 gauge(could be larger) circuit from the main panel to the pool subpanel, then this circuit is not REQUIRED to have GFI protection. You certainly COULD install GFI protection, but it is not required.

    Another issue that I just learned about: Low voltage lights are PROHIBITED within 10 feet of the water. See Figure 680-16 on document page 652 (pdf page 22). There are some exceptions discussed in this post. http://www.troublefreepool.com/viewtopi ... ht=voltage

    Titanium
    Yes, kind of. I wasn't going to have a sub panel. Instead, I was going to run a circuit directly from the main box. This circuit will be GFI protected with a GFI breaker directly in the main box.

    So, from the main box, I'd come out of the basement, under ground to a a 6x6 lumber deck post about 2 feet but still below the deck boards, to a T. To the left (for discussion purposes only) will be 2 outlets. Outlet 1 will be for the pump and controlled by a timer and an outdoor weatherproof switch (for overriding the timer so I can turn the pump off from above the deck). The 2nd will have a switch connected for the in-pool light. Both outlets and switches are the weatherproof, covered type.

    Coming out of the T the other way ( to the right) are 2 more outlets. These outlets do not have switches or timers. I figured 1 of these would be for low-voltage lighting ( thanks for the info you provided. I'll have to re-plan). The other would most likely sit idle.


    I wanted the electrician to put another set of 2 outlets on top of the deck. The deck is about 53" from grade to top of deck boards. I wanted these outlets at 4 feet above the deck surface to plug in a radio. These are the outlets he balked at. The others below deck and about 12 feet away he was fine with. I don't want to run a cord from the top of the deck to the outlets below to run a radio.

    I have to check with him about the sub-panel, the 30 amp breaker and the 10 gauge wire. I'm not sure what he's planning. He's generally a very safe guy. I'm the more risky. He may already have this planned. I need to find out.

    Thanks again. This is a great forum!!

    Rich

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    Rich,

    I wanted the electrician to put another set of 2 outlets on top of the deck. The deck is about 53" from grade to top of deck boards. I wanted these outlets at 4 feet above the deck surface to plug in a radio. These are the outlets he balked at.
    OK, I have to take back the nasty jab I took at your electrician neighbor earlier. He is exactly correct in balking. NEC Article NEC 680.22(A)(2) says (paraphrased):

    Other Receptacles. Receptacles not for motors or other loads directly related to the circulation system must be not less than 10 ft from the water.
    For a nice picture, take a look at Figure 680-10 on pdf page 20 of the link I posted earlier to the Mike Holt NEC Article 680 document.

    I wasn't going to have a sub panel. Instead, I was going to run a circuit directly from the main box. This circuit will be GFI protected with a GFI breaker directly in the main box.

    So, from the main box, I'd come out of the basement, under ground to a a 6x6 lumber deck post about 2 feet but still below the deck boards, to a T. To the left (for discussion purposes only) will be 2 outlets. Outlet 1 will be for the pump and controlled by a timer and an outdoor weatherproof switch (for overriding the timer so I can turn the pump off from above the deck). The 2nd will have a switch connected for the in-pool light. Both outlets and switches are the weatherproof, covered type.

    Coming out of the T the other way ( to the right) are 2 more outlets. These outlets do not have switches or timers. I figured 1 of these would be for low-voltage lighting ( thanks for the info you provided. I'll have to re-plan). The other would most likely sit idle.
    Thanks for the detailed description. I understand what you are planning now. While what you describe will work, I would consider the use of a dedicated pool panel with an integrated timer. While you will spend money on the pool panel, you will save some money not having to buy a GFI breaker for your main panel. And future additions will be so much easier. Especially if there is any future possibility of installing a cleaner requiring a booster pump. This future booster pump would need a power feed in addition to a timer.

    This link shows a mechanical Intermatic panel which has one mechanical timer for your filter pump, plus room for a future timer. You do need supply the breakers for this panel. For more money, Intermatic also makes panels with digital timers and freeze protection.

    [edit]The Intermatic timers (mechanical or digital) will allow more than one run time per day, which the timer you are planning on probably does not allow. So you could set up the Intermatic timers to come on for four hours in the morning and four hours in the evening rather than one contiguous 8 hour run time.[end edit]

    Titanium
    24,000 gallon inground freeform pool/spa circa 1983 (113 ft perimeter, 625 sq ft) with 350 gallon attached spill-over spa
    2007 2 HP, three-phase Hayward TriStar pump which is powered by an Ikeric VS-200 variable speed drive system
    1983 Laars XE Pool/Spa Heater Type ES 400,000 BTU, 1998 Hayward Super Star-Clear C-4000 cartridge filter (400 sq ft, 4 separate cartridges)
    1998 Polaris 380 pressure-side cleaner w/ 3/4 HP booster pump
    One skimmer :( and one PoolSkim :), One Supervision Galaxy LED pool lamp, Second story solar panels
    Hayward/GoldLine AquaLogic PS4 (replaced 1983 vintage dual circuit Intermatic timer)

  10. Back To Top    #10
    Ti,

    No prob. I didn't take it negatively at all. I asked and you answered. I appreciate all of the input.

    "
    For a nice picture, take a look at Figure 680-10 on pdf page 20 of the link I posted earlier to the Mike Holt NEC Article 680 document."

    This is exactly what I asked him to do. My clearance is at least 12 foot from the edge of the pool. I'll show him this pic.

    Thanks for the panel explanation too. I appreciate your help.

    Regards,

    Rich

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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    Mike Holt's illustration in figure 680-16 shows a violation of low voltage lighting being too close to the water's edge, and at 4ft from the pool wall, it is clearly a violation. On PDF page 21, he states, via his comment, that low-voltage lighting systems must not be located within 10 ft of a pool, spa, hot tub, etc, even if GFI protected.

    This is technically incorrect, or at least not completely correct. NEC 411.4 prohibits low-voltage lighting within 10ft of a pool unless permitted by Article 680. Article 680 allows luminaires of all types at heights more than 12 ft above max water level within even 5 ft of the pool wall; this would also include low-voltage lighting (and no GFI is required). And luminaires between 5 and 10 feet from the pool wall and 5 feet or less above the max water height are allowed if GFI protected. If the low-voltage lighting system were to include GFI protection on its OUTPUT (does such a system exist?), then this would be explicitly allowed in article 680, which therefore would allow it in article 411.4.

    What is strangely omitted is wording about luminaires between 5 and 10 feet from pool wall and more than 5 feet above max water height. By omission of this, low-voltage lighting with GFI protection on its output (again, does such a system exist?) located from 5 to 10 feet of the pool wall would be allowed only if it was 5 ft or less than max water height!
    Scott

    27'x52" AG Vogue Impact, Waterway Cyclone 200 cartridge filter, Waterway pump w/2 HP 2-sp motor, 8mil solar cover, Raypak 206 nat gas heater, Pool Rover Jr.

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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    I am all confused. Can you have low voltage LED lighting in your pool?
    OH TWINS
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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    I can see why you'd be confused.

    Althoutgh I may come off sounding otherwise, I don't proclaim to be a code expert. Rather, once I investigate something related to codes, I try to remember as much as I can - someone always asks, "hey, when you were doing your...". With that said, my guess is that if the LED lighting is part of the product you are buying and it's UL listed, it's probably OK (UL tested the product which includes the LED kit as part of the product). If the pool/spa is manufactured, tested and approved with the LED lighting, then it's OK. Otherwise, I would think not.

    Anybody know for sure?
    Scott

    27'x52" AG Vogue Impact, Waterway Cyclone 200 cartridge filter, Waterway pump w/2 HP 2-sp motor, 8mil solar cover, Raypak 206 nat gas heater, Pool Rover Jr.

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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    The rules are very different for underwater lights and above water lights. Underwater lights that are specifically designed to be underwater lights can be low voltage and use LEDs. Above water lights that are low voltage must be 10' horizontally away from the water (or a little closer if they are high up).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    I have a LED light bar that is right underneath my waterfall, is this considered in water or above water ? This light bar was purchased from the same manufacturer which made the waterfall.
    OH TWINS
    San Juan 8500 gal Fiberglass Pool, Sta-Rite Max-E 1 HP pump, Star-Rite System 3 Cartridge Filter 300 sq. ft,
    Sta-Rite Max-E 200,000 BTU gas heater, Aqua Logic SWG with P-4 panel. Goldline wireless remote control,
    3 Jandy Neverlube Valves with Goldline motorized control, iRobot Verro 500 pool cleaner
    5 Poolstar 1000 LED Lights, LED strip light at waterfall, Prozone Ozonator PZ7 with degasser column,
    Jandy Auto Waterfill, Aquamatic motorized pool cover, Poolbuster Max CC handheld vacuum.

  16. Back To Top    #16
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    Re: electric convenience outlet

    If it is under the waterfall then it is probably considered an underwater light, but the local inspector would have some leeway to agree or not.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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