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Thread: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

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    4myBitsy's Avatar
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    Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    This is my first year with a pool and the pool store talked me into the Sustain (Cal-Hypo) system. I purchased what was supposed to be enough for the whole summer & I have maybe enough chemicals to last me another week or so. I would like to make the switch to the BBB method. I have a Taylor TF-100 test kit just want to know how I go about switching. I read a post somewhere that said something about a possible problem switching with the summer sheild product added in the same year. I put a jug & a half in the 3rd week of March. Will that cause any problems? My water is clear & has been all year.
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    I am not entirely sure what all is involved with the sustain system, but since it is a chlorine sanitizer based system you should be able to switch right over. Post a full set of tests results.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Welcome to TFP

    Your "switch" is simply going to involve using a different source of chlorine (plain, unscented liquid bleach instead of cal-hypo or trichlor pucks) as your primary chlorine source. BBB is not about any secret chemistry but rather about accurate testing and understanding what to do with your test results. To get started, you need to tell us where your pool chemistry is right now.

    Gold Supporter, TFP Lifetime Supporter, 26,680 gal Plaster IGP 3.5 - 10' depth / Attached Waterfall Spa, Manually Chlorinated, Triton Sand Filter, 1.5 HP * 1.1 SF = 1.65 SFHP 1-speed Pentair WhisperFlo WF-26 Pump, 400K BTU NG Teledyne Laars Series One Heater, Polaris 360, Test Kit Comparison, Chlorine/CYA Chart, SLAMing Your Pool, OCLT
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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Like the other said... if it's a chlorine based system, and it sounds like it is, it shouldn't be too much trouble to switch it. Just get a full set of test numbers and we can help you see what you need to do first.
    Indiana, ABG 24'x52" Galveston by Blue Cascade (Craigslist buy w/part of deck included), 13,500 gallons, Intex SWG, solar panels mix 2, TF-100 test kit.

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    4myBitsy's Avatar
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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    I have read alot in pool school & feel pretty confident about using the pool calculator & BBB chemicals. What I am not sure about is the Sustain Summer Sheild tests as CC's. So will this cause a problem because normally CC's are cause for starting the shocking process. I always have CC's with this products.

    I have read about it in a ton of other threads. JasonLion wrote this "As long as their summer shield hasn't been added since last summer there shouldn't be any problems simply starting to use BBB, without any conversion process." in this thread: switching-from-sustain-to-bbb-any-concerns-t44236.html This makes me believe that since I added the Summer Sheild this year I may have a problem.
    There is also a bunch of info in this thread: fas-dpd-interference-question-t7571.html
    I also posted on another forum about it at the begining of the year because I was worried about the CC's: http://www.poolforum.com/pf2/showthread ... ater-right

    current test results
    FC 6.5
    CC1.5
    TA 110
    PH 7.5
    Did not test CYA because I added more yesterday to bring it up to 30-40
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    This patent from PPG who makes the Sustain system talks about using N,N'-dihalo-2-imidazolidinone including such variants as 1,3-dichloro-4,4,5,5-tetramethyl-2-imidazolidinone or 1,3-dichloro-4,4,5-trimethyl-2-imidazolidinone. These act in a way similar to Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in terms of binding to chlorine to prevent degradation from the UV in sunlight. It is possible that the chlorine releases from this chemical slowly enough to look like CC in the chlorine test.

    When you do the FAS-DPD chlorine test, try waiting after it becomes clear during the FC part of the test. Does it slowly turn pink again? If so, wait longer and when it no longer turns pink after you add drops to make it clear, then do the CC part of the test. This might be a way to work around this chemical interference.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    OK, I let it sit & about an hour later it was light pink again. I let it sit for another hpur & it looked the same. I added 1 drop that brought it back to clear & did the CC test which came out the same as before 1.5.
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Mmmm. Well, then perhaps the chlorine bound to that CYA-like product doesn't release very quickly at all or there are other CCs in the water sample or perhaps the Sustain chemical itself interferes with the CC part of the test. You may just need to go more by your nose than by the CC test. If the water is clear and you don't have significant overnight chlorine loss and you don't smell any "bad pool smell", then ignore the CC level.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    OK, Thank you!

    I have a couple questions about starting BBB. How often do I do the overnight FC loss test? Also, how exactly should I start the switch? I assume I have to figure out how much chlorine my pool will need a night? My target FC is 3-6 so if I am going to be adding the bleach at night do I add enough to get me to 6 or do I need to add enough to get me higher than that to keep it in range until the next night?
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    You should probably pick one forum and stick with it. The following is what I responded in another forum (with minor modifications):

    You only do the overnight FC loss test when you suspect a problem, such as losing chlorine faster than normal for your pool.

    To switch, you just start using chlorinating liquid or bleach as your primary source of chlorine. However, with the Sustain Shield chemical in the pool, it's unclear how to deal with that and transition to using CYA. The only clear-cut way is a full water replacement, but perhaps you can transition over time. If you see the chlorine loss increasing during the day but not at night, due to the Sustain Shield slowly getting diluted out of the pool, then you can increase your Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level. Unfortunately such an intermediate combination isn't something we know anything about nor have documented for what to do.

    As for how much chlorine to add, you add whatever is needed to not go below the minimum in Chlorine / CYA Chart, but that would be after you get rid of the Sustain Shield from your pool. As purely a guess, I would follow this chart when the CYA level gets higher, but when it's below 30 ppm CYA as it is right now I'd still have a minimum of 3 ppm FC at all times. You can use Polyquat 60 weekly as insurance to prevent algae during this transition period until the Summer Shield goes away.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    I have posted both places, I meantioned in my first post of this thread that I have posted both places. This is my first year owning and taking care of a pool, I am looking to get as much information as I can. I want to make sure I am doing everything the best I can. I have gotten valuable information from both sites. Thank you again for your info!
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    OK, just keep us up to date with your progress regardless of where you get your info so that we can have a complete picture.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Any new news to report on the Sustain product... I too am going thru a change to the BBB and my FIL put in the SummerShield opening the pool...
    13500 Gal. Above Ground. Vinyl. Hayward E-100 Highrate Sand Filter with Hayward Power Flow LX pump. Installed 2006.

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    4myBitsy's Avatar
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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    I am going to start with the bleach tonight. My plan is to just ignore the CC for now until the Summer Sheild wears off.
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    To switch, you just start using chlorinating liquid or bleach as your primary source of chlorine. However, with the Sustain Shield chemical in the pool, it's unclear how to deal with that and transition to using CYA. The only clear-cut way is a full water replacement, but perhaps you can transition over time. If you see the chlorine loss increasing during the day but not at night, due to the Sustain Shield slowly getting diluted out of the pool, then you can increase your Cyanuric Acid (CYA) level. Unfortunately such an intermediate combination isn't something we know anything about nor have documented for what to do.

    As for how much chlorine to add, you add whatever is needed to not go below the minimum in Chlorine / CYA Chart, but that would be after you get rid of the Sustain Shield from your pool. As purely a guess, I would follow this chart when the CYA level gets higher, but when it's below 30 ppm CYA as it is right now I'd still have a minimum of 3 ppm FC at all times. You can use Polyquat 60 weekly as insurance to prevent algae during this transition period until the Summer Shield goes away.
    Chem geek,

    What are the chances this summershield doesn't show up in a CYA test, but actually works like CYA?

    In other words, you add CYA because your test shows none, but in reality you have double the "CYA Power" causing the need to run higher FC numbers?

    Just a thought as I too am battling a pool that was treated with Summershield, that is taking a long time to clear up?

    Thanks
    13500 Gal. Above Ground. Vinyl. Hayward E-100 Highrate Sand Filter with Hayward Power Flow LX pump. Installed 2006.

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    When you start the "system" the pool store has you add CYA to 30.
    Fortunately my pool has been clear all year but I have kept my pool between 4-6 FC for my CYA reading not the 1-3 Sustain recommends. I also did not add the small "shock" tabs weekly bc they sent my FC past 30 & I saw no reason for it. I just added them when I need to boost it up to keep it 3-6.
    I am a beginner at this but I think if you have a CYA reading of 0 you need to bring that up. Both Sustain & TFP recommend it.
    AG 24' round 52" walls, 12,900 gal
    Proline 22" sand filter, Proline 1hp pump, vinyl liner, Taylor TF-100 test kit, TFPC

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Quote Originally Posted by 4myBitsy
    When you start the "system" the pool store has you add CYA to 30.
    Fortunately my pool has been clear all year but I have kept my pool between 4-6 FC for my CYA reading not the 1-3 Sustain recommends. I also did not add the small "shock" tabs weekly bc they sent my FC past 30 & I saw no reason for it. I just added them when I need to boost it up to keep it 3-6.
    I am a beginner at this but I think if you have a CYA reading of 0 you need to bring that up. Both Sustain & TFP recommend it.
    I have added the amount of CYA to bring it up to 30. I just want to know what that magic elixir "summer shield" brings to the party. Does it "hold" FC like CYA does? Should I bring my FC dose up in case it does "hold"... I have brought my FC up to 14 to see if it helps with my cloudy water... I probably just need a dose of DE and some patience :P
    13500 Gal. Above Ground. Vinyl. Hayward E-100 Highrate Sand Filter with Hayward Power Flow LX pump. Installed 2006.

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    According to this patent from the manufacturer PPG, they show how the compound makes chlorine react about 7x more slowly with organic compounds and kill times are much, much slower than chlorine. This implies that chlorine does bind to it similar to CYA and the fact that it has a part that shows up as CC that doesn't seem to get released is a bad sign.

    It will not measure in the CYA test so it's like adding CYA to the water reducing chlorine's effectiveness, but not being able to measure it and not knowing how much to compensate for it. As a result, I would never use this product.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Thanks an awful lot for your work on this chem geek.....Its not what I wanted to hear, but at least I know more about what is going on with the pools chemistry.

    Let me run something by you....what would happen if I was to assume a Shock level of FC of 35.... Something like having a CYA near 100...Could this be damaging to me, the pool, etc....Or would it just capture and hold more Chlorine?

    It just kills me that the last time my FIL went to this pool store, a store that he bought the pool from, and has bought every chemical from, they told him his CYA was zero, and he needed to add CYA to the pool...

    They new he was on this Sustain Summer Shield....so they really have no clue as to what they are doing...

    It may benefit PPG to give out some training on their products. This would only help from alienating potential customers that do research on some of their product. Many people just blindly add chemicals becasue "thats what the pool guy told me to do"...but I guess if we are on this forum, we know better!
    13500 Gal. Above Ground. Vinyl. Hayward E-100 Highrate Sand Filter with Hayward Power Flow LX pump. Installed 2006.

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    Re: Help switching from Sustain System to BBB

    Unfortunately I have no idea how much FC would be needed. Even if you could measure how much of the Sustain product is in the pool, I don't know the equilibrium constants to figure out how much FC is needed. You really are flying blind here. You could try different increments of 10 ppm FC and then visibly see there is any improvement, though with cloudy water it's often more about circulation/filtration IF the algae is all dead (assuming it's cloudy from algae).
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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