Repeat Stains on Vinyl Pool Liner

[Kymberly]

History:

Pool liner and filter both 7 years old.

Topped off as needed with water from Kinetico treatment system as we have high iron content/hard well water.

Tested regularly by pool store - no metals noted. Ph does tend to run high in this pool but we are working to monitor and balance as needed.

Water is crystal clear/blue BUT starting this season, upon use of a "new" product recommended by them called "EZ Pool" (All in one algaecide, shock, etc.) We now have yellow tinge staining around the perimeter of the walls/floor and brown stains in splotches on the floor.

Upon first appearance pool store recommended stain remover, scrubbing, lemons (!) and removing all chlorine and taking pH super low. Pool stains did clear up. We also replaced all sand in filter as a precaution.

We followed their lengthy recommendations to a "T" and all was well with the chemicals (per their advice) until we added the EZ Pool again. Three days later - stains are back!

I'm beyond frustrated because we are following their advice (and have a good track record with them overall) but it seems like endless $ on my dime to play "well let's try this ..." without resolution. I'm particularly peeved because we had no problems for 6 years. My water chemistry did not suddenly "change" this year. We obviously will quit using the EZ Pool ($199 bucket by the way).

Does anyone have experience with removing what appear to be yellow/brown metal stains without spending a fortune or requiring a chemistry degree? More importantly, how to insure that they STAY gone?

I can't prove it's the EZ Pool but I'm skeptical that after 6 years of trouble free maintenance we suddenly have a high maintenance pool?

---

ETA:
This makes me think I might be wise to follow the advice help-with-copper-stains-t12242.html I know it's a few years old but I can't imagine the information has changed much? The issue being I am not known for my patience and have no interest in waiting "a few months."

As of 7/22 I'm placing a chlorine puck on the stains and they are disappearing. I don't think they are gone - I think I just bleached the scaling/stain and it will likely reappear (think stains on a toilet bowl. The scale/buildup is there - but the bleach makes them "disappear" temporarily).

My question now is have we been on the wrong track all along? If they fade immediately in chlorine (but bounce back if it drops) and do not react to metal stain removers - are they organic after all?

We are boaters/lake swimmers and one fear I've had is that something was introduced into the pool from the kid's bathing suits? The only issue being that the timing of EZ Pool = "Bam! stains!" seems too perfect to be coincidental but I'm not one to place blame if it isn't there either.

 

[woodyp]

One of the things that algaecide treatments are most famous for is----------you guessed it-----------metals! Mostly copper that could be causing those stains. We don't recommend their use. Crush up some cheapo vitamin C tablets, hold in a sock or old hose on the stain for a bit and see if they lighten. If so, it's metal stains.

 

[Kymberly]

Thanks for the prompt reply! We are certain they are metal stains and I'm slightly less freaked out this time (last time I was fearful they would never come out). This pool is spotless. I vac regularly and filter 24/7. I brush after adding chemicals to prevent pooling. I pride myself on my sparkling blue pool.

Do you think I'm on the right track to quit using the EZ Pool product and see this problem stop? I know I sound like a glutton for punishment but I spent $199 on this stupid bucket and when the pool store said "now this should work fine now" I (foolishly) believed them. Clearly I am no longer trusting this product so once we get the stains gone can we hope that if we quit using the product, the stain issue will resolve itself or do I now have to worry that this is an ongoing battle or it will get worse before it gets better? The product was last applied last Tuesday. They had me slowly balance and rechlorinate prior to adding the product so I was not going rogue.

In the past I did less with better results. Shock, chlorine pucks, pH as needed. Swim happily around. They started with this fancy stuff and now I don't know what to do!

 

[duraleigh]

crystal-clear-water-that-is-smelly-and-dries-skin-t65445.html Here's another happy EZ pool owner. We've had others.

Kymberly,

I would suggest you never visit the pool store again. No one cares about your pool more than you do and you can learn to manage it yourself if you are willing to make the commitment to learn.

read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School for starters and consider switching to chlorine only. The alternative probably is to go back the that store (or another one) and listen to their advice again.....which is what got you here in the first place.

 

[duraleigh]

The stains can be addressed rather easily once you ditch the easy pool.

I need to tell you that if you switch to what we teach, you will be browbeat to death to buy one of the two kits we suggest and they are not cheap.....$68. You'll get that investment back 100 times over in satisfaction alone if you decide to manage your pool water yourself. Keep reading the threads on here.

 

[woodyp]

I volunteer to be the first 'brow beater"! If you take that much pride and put your own time and effort into enjoying your pool, you OWE yourself the proper tool to maintain it.

 

[Kymberly]

Update: We had the stains removed, spoke to a Rep From EZ Pool who instructed the pool store to refund our money ($213 fine but doesn't address the $$$ spent to FIX the stains last time).

Stains initially faded but even after complete treatment (dropping pH, etc. to remove them, switched out sand) they came back.

I am not beginning to disparage of ever being fully FREE of them. Is this going to be something that once we have them - we have to fight forever?

We are more than halfway through Ohio's pool season and I have yet to be able to enjoy looking at our pool. I can "know" it's clean but yellow/brown stains on the bottom are hardly a point of pride. I don't want to have people over and have to explain "oh no it just LOOKS dirty."

 

[Kymberly]

Okay we are STILL trying to remove these stains.
Steps Advised:
One bottle of Protect All
7 Days later we chlorine down to 0
pH was dropped to 6.8 (?)
Two bottles of stain remover applied to heaviest area of stain
Pool left to circulate for 48 hours
48 hours later I'd swear they are darker than before and there are MORE of them!

The pool continues to test at .2 for copper (prior to EZ Pool it was 0). The Pool Store is starting to claim that EZ Pool is "all out of the pool within 7 days" (ie backpedaling on responsibility). We are still using them to try and FIX the problem - as if I start going off the grid they are likely to claim THAT is the problem and I won't have any claim against them. No heater and no metal on the pool otherwise.

So far our pool has been stained for the majority of the time since Memorial Day and rendered unusable during a heat wave (with 0 chlorine we are advised not to use it).

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA HOW TO ABSOLUTELY REMOVE BROWN SMUDGE/STAINS from a vinyl liner? The last time they all came off - but then came back when we (foolishly) reapplied the product. We super shocked the pool and they faded - for about 48 hours before coming back stronger than ever. I honestly can't get a handle on this and don't know where to turn. I just know we don't have a weekly budget of $50-$100 in "try this." Ohio's pool season is soon to be over and we have had maybe three days of a stain free pool.

 

[Donldson]

We are still using them to try and FIX the problem - as if I start going off the grid they are likely to claim THAT is the problem and I won't have any claim against them. No heater and no metal on the pool otherwise.

I just finished reading through this thread, and this is a problem. Any advice you get here is going to involve not using any pool store, much less that one, to try to fix the problem. It's going to involve getting your own test kit, running your own tests, and posting those results. It's not going to involve buying a bunch of 'hail mary' products from the pool store. It is going to involve some work on your part learning about what exactly caused the stains and how to properly fight them.

So if you are afraid of "going off the grid" then we have a bit of a conflict that only you can resolve.

 

[Kymberly]

I happy to transition to BBB but assumed that stain treatment is still necessary? We are happy to buy our own products and do our own tests. Unfortunately we don't have one at home that pinpoints copper - the likely culprit in the product. At THIS POINT we are in the middle of what may become an actionable small claim. I am happy to try any reasonable solution GUARANTEED to work. From any source those seem few and far between.

Common sense solutions like the basics discussed here appeal to me and common sense would dictate to be fine because they still work on the basics of sound water chemistry.

What we DON'T Want is "buy John's Magic Sparkle Product!" because to introduce anything else "manufactured" (for lack of a better word) will muddy the issue further. That's what I meant by going off the grid (ie introducing new "products" into the pool). T

The question now (using the numbers *I* already provided FC 0, ph 6.8, copper .2, no other metals) We were able to get the stains out once -- early in the process when we didn't yet realize that the EZ Pool was the culprit. It came clean only to have us reapply (ugh!) and new stains appeared. Now we repeated the previous stain removal steps - to no avail.

My concern/question is why what worked once no longer does? My gut feeling is we didn't drop the pH low enough to allow the stains to release, but I am concerned with how low we can go?

Current Numbers:
Chlorine 0
ph. 6.8
Copper .2
Treatment 7/12 One bottle protect all to sequester
7/19 lowered ph (to reach below 6.8)
7/19 Added two bottles of Stain remover
7/21 48 hours later - no change in stains

The first mystery is why the copper of .2 is not coming down three weeks later but seems to be lingering in the pool. No new water has been intentionally added (it has rained however). We know it was added IN by the EZ Pool but three weeks later it seems like it should be coming OUT. To complicate matters further, our well water has high iron and the pool needs to be topped off (it was blistering hot last week) but I'm fearful of adding any MORE water into the pool but at this point we can't circulate (as of tonight) safely). We only add water from a Kinetico Treatment System but it can't possibly catch ALL the iron.

We have already changed out our filter media (sand) once just to be safe as well but the repeat application of EZ Pool (still ashamed of THAT one) now means that may be tainted.

 

[Donldson]

The first mystery is why the copper of .2 is not coming down three weeks later but seems to be lingering in the pool. No new water has been intentionally added (it has rained however).

You can remove the stains but the copper is not going anywhere. Sequestrants will keep metals in limbo but they can't be filtered out.

Have you read this article? pool-school/metal%20stains

 

[Kymberly]

The first mystery is why the copper of .2 is not coming down three weeks later but seems to be lingering in the pool. No new water has been intentionally added (it has rained however).

You can remove the stains but the copper is not going anywhere. Sequestrants will keep metals in limbo but they can't be filtered out.

Have you read this article? pool-school/metal%20stains

Yes I have, thanks. When I say "mystery" I mean it with dripping sarcasm. We were told (of course) that copper should work its way back out in such small doses. I have to give them enough rope (or in this case time) to hang themselves. They will insist with a straight face that "All the copper caused by EZ Pool should be out within 7 days). Three WEEKS later it's still holding steady at .2 We have 7 years of 0 copper and are now stuck with it after the EZ Pool.

At this point we know HOW the stains occurred - the EZ Pool - what I can't seem to get a handle on is how to get rid of them permanently?

This makes me think I might be wise to follow the advice http://www.troublefreepool.com/help-with-copper-stains-t12242.html I know it's a few years old but I can't imagine the information has changed much? The issue being I am not known for my patience and have no interest in waiting "a few months."

Vit C tablets don't make an immediate difference but the previous stains did disappear with the metal stain removal treatment. This round they did react (temporarily) to disappear when the pool had a higher dose of chlorine, but reappear when the chlorine drops, and the metal stain removal treatment did not budge them.

I would also like to be able to actually USE this pool for the brief few weeks we have of pool season. The pool is becoming a huge cost suck with dwindling returns. We have easily spent $500+ on it this season to have a pool we can't use or let anyone see. I am not a person to use or let anyone in - or see - the pool in this state. The stains cover just under half the bottom in splotches. Not inviting.

ETA: I'm placing a chlorine puck on the stains and they are disappearing. I don't think they are gone - I think I just bleached the scaling/stain and it will likely reappear (think stains on a toilet bowl. The scale/buildup is there - but the bleach makes them "disappear" temporarily).

My question now is have we been on the wrong track all along? If they fade immediately in chlorine (but bounce back if it drops) and do not react to metal stain removers - are they organic after all?

We are boaters/lake swimmers and one fear I've had is that something was introduced into the pool from the kid's bathing suits? The only issue being that the timing of EZ Pool = "Bam! stains!" seems too perfect to be coincidental.

 

[Kymberly]

The stains can be addressed rather easily once you ditch the easy pool.

I need to tell you that if you switch to what we teach, you will be browbeat to death to buy one of the two kits we suggest and they are not cheap.....$68. You'll get that investment back 100 times over in satisfaction alone if you decide to manage your pool water yourself. Keep reading the threads on here.

I'm definitely ordering a better one. Thanks! I just have to make my final decision. I'm watching the videos to see which one seems more "me."

Liquid bleach isn't a problem. I think we use the same thing in our Kinetico Water Treatment system. I have a suspicion I have 6 bottles of it in my basement right now. The rest I have to find a supplier (I sound like a drug dealer right now We live in rural Hooterville and they are unlikely to have what I need at the corner gas station, Dollar General, or feed mill.