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Thread: Endless Pool Heating Question

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    Endless Pool Heating Question

    Hello,

    I was wondering if someone could give me a little guidance on the best way for heating my Endless Pool. The pool is indoor and above ground and is about 3000 gallons. Because my wife has back and nerve injuries, we keep the pool at about 98F. For the same reason, we only have a solar cover for times when the pool is not in use because a non-automatic retractable cover is too heavy for her to open. The pool is heated by a 5.5kw electric heater. The monthly damage is a $600 electric bill (rates are about $11.50/KWh).

    We are considering putting in a gas heater (a Versa 55B Natural Gas Heater). Unfortunately, due to space and venting issues, putting in the heater is possible, but is also going to cost quite a bit (I expect around $4,500). But we will still have only the thermal cover so I expect we will just be paying the gas company rather than the electric company (though I expect gas would be at least a little cheaper vs. electric).

    Our other option is an automatic retractable cover from Endless Pools and keeping the electric heater. This cover is fabric and completely encloses the pool, so I assume it will do a much better job at retaining heat, necessitating less heating time and better cost savings. That's $5,800 + installation, so I figure about $6,500. That cover is much thicker and I assume will be much better at retaining heat than a poorly fitting thermal cover floating on the surface.

    So I was hoping someone here could give me a little advice or thoughts as to which would be a better investment since I probably can't do both right now.

    Thanks.
    2765 Gallon Endless Pool/Spa | Indoor | Vinyl | Predator/Pentair 50 Cartridge Filter | Taylor FAS-DPD K-2006 | Central NJ, USA

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    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    If your indoor space could support the below idea we could start searching for details.....

    What kind of roof structure is above said pool? Have you considered a standard, but custom made to your dimensions, hot tub cover? And using a pulley system and or winch to raise it up?

    This is sweet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fmg2ySdueao

    Maybe this times 2 http://www.autospacover.com/home.html
    18'x43' Sport Pool
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Thanks for the quick reply. I don't think either of the two links would work. The pool is 8x15 with two sides up against walls. I've thought about building a pulley system to raise a hard cover over the pool, but I don't expect it would cost much less than the Endless Pools Automatic Retractable Cover, which we probably be much safer, and far more elegant.

    I think my real question is how efficient a real cover is versus a solar cover (at retaining heat).
    2765 Gallon Endless Pool/Spa | Indoor | Vinyl | Predator/Pentair 50 Cartridge Filter | Taylor FAS-DPD K-2006 | Central NJ, USA

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Depending on your location roof top solar heat may work, or at a minimum be a seasonal supplemental heat source
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
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    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Do you have a link for the fabric cover you are considering? Hot tub cover sites give r values for their cover, that's what needs to be compared to eliminate them as the best insulator.

    With it up against a wall seems like it would be easier to rig a cover to be tilted up towards wall automatically, assuming its the long side. Still could look "rigged" vs professional....

    With gas would you not just be able to heat it up say an hour prior to use, then turn off and reap some savings that way? That could be calculated meaning BTU's to raise pool from x to y temp.....
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Can you put the heater outside and run the pipes inside? This might be cheaper than going thru the venting issue. If you can, I then would get a 400K BTU heater to heat the pool fast and that way you can heat it on demand basically. No need for a cover then. What type of interior room is this pool in?
    Paul
    http://www.gastekservices.com A word of caution: When working with gas and electrical you might want to consider a licensed contractor. Consider the value of your life and others around you. If you would like to provide a review of the help I provided, please use the following link to leave a review. gastek - Google Search,

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    The cover is here, but it doesn't provide much info. Also, according to the manufacturer, the gas heater will raise the temperature of the pool 2 degrees F per hour, so on demand wouldn't be great since I think it probably loses 3-4 degrees per day at least. Plus the switch/thermostat is in the basement, which isn't great for my wife. I am going to look into extending the thermostat leads to the first floor.

    I'm thinking that for now I will install a manual retractable cover and see what the costs savings are (I have most of the parts for a manual cover) and then, if it works out, install a winch or something to close the pool. Opening the pool just uses a crank/roller which she can probably manage.

    Thanks everyone, and more suggestions are welcome.
    2765 Gallon Endless Pool/Spa | Indoor | Vinyl | Predator/Pentair 50 Cartridge Filter | Taylor FAS-DPD K-2006 | Central NJ, USA

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    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    So i looked at the cover, the material looks very similar to my Coverstar Autocover. I can't imagine it helping much compared to your solar style float on top of water cover. It's my understanding, that most of the heat saved is by preventing evaporation from occurring (especially in an indoor pool with no direct sunlight).

    The proposed gas heater is quite small and appears to be priced around $1000 or less, so that is certainly some expense involved in the installation. I like the idea of installing the gas heater outside if that is a possibility.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Quote Originally Posted by harleysilo
    The proposed gas heater is quite small and appears to be priced around $1000 or less, so that is certainly some expense involved in the installation. I like the idea of installing the gas heater outside if that is a possibility.
    Can you recommend any specific outdoor gas heaters? My installer is a good guy, but he tends to just think of using Endless Pool parts which aren't designed to go outside. The cost of installing the gas heater is so high because I have little space and no existing venting inside, so if I could put it outside that might work best. Endless Pool heaters just use 2.5" PVC so I don't think there is anything special there. I've also looked a bit into heat pumps but since I'm in Northern New Jersey I don't think that would work about 6 months out of the year, making it a bit pointless.

    The room is a pretty standard room. Three exterior walls, two of which are mostly windows. The floor is raised above the slab so the pool is above ground, but only about 2' is above the floor. The pipes then have about a 50 foot run under two crawlspaces (through somewhat insulated pvc) to the basement where the filter/heater/pumps are.



    2765 Gallon Endless Pool/Spa | Indoor | Vinyl | Predator/Pentair 50 Cartridge Filter | Taylor FAS-DPD K-2006 | Central NJ, USA

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    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    No i can't, but if ps0303 doesn't post back you should PM him. I agree about you having issues most of the year with a heat pump given your location.

    I have read about people having issues with large gas heaters. The issue with the 400,000 or larger BTU heaters is making sure you have ample gas supply to them...which i've read can involve a new meter, and or a larger line run to heater location. So at some point you may need to talk with gas company to figure out the gas flow you have etc.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Looking at some online calculators, it doesn't seem I'd need anywhere near 400k BTUs so hopefully that won't be an issue. Surface area is about 100sq ft (3000 gallons) and pool is in a heated/air conditioned room at sea level.
    2765 Gallon Endless Pool/Spa | Indoor | Vinyl | Predator/Pentair 50 Cartridge Filter | Taylor FAS-DPD K-2006 | Central NJ, USA

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Hi:
    I am in the same scenario as you have mentioned.
    Endless pools recommends 5.5 kw heater and I actually had a gas line brought in but ventilation is still a problem for gas and installation is expensive.
    OUTDOOR INSTALL NOT RECOMMENDED FOR WINTER TIME DUE TO FREEZING PIPES.
    I am thinking about going with either inline heater or an small electric heater with cover as you have mentioned.
    I would love to hear if you have any suggestions or have already finished your install.
    Thank you for the post.

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    peterdaly's Avatar
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    I have no expertise in this area, really at all, but I'm curious about something, and have one other idea.

    Seems reasonable that a heat pump would not work outside in the NJ winter.

    1 - Crazy? idea - Could a heat pump maybe be placed directly in your basement, extracting heat from your inside air, instead of your outside air?

    2. An evacuated tube solar heater could crank out heat all winter long if kept clear from snow, and might pay for itself quite quickly if you are currently paying $600/month for pool heat. Normally those systems are better suited to domestic hot water than pool heat, but your abnormal situation sounds similar to situations they may be perfectly suited for. No pool pipes would go outside. A freeze proof liquid would be cycled outside to the collector(s), then a heat exchanger inside would be used to transfer the heat to the pool water, as is standard in an evacuated solar install.

    Do you know how many BTU's a day you need to maintain target temperature? (Or if you don't run the heater, do you how many degrees will your pool drop in 24 hours?)
    Fayetteville, NY -17K gal, IG vinyl, Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo Variable Speed Pump, FlowVis Flow Meter, Sand filter
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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Just looking over options for solar and one option may be similar to a pentair solar touch control system which may monitor temperature and empty pipes for an outdoor gas heater during the freezing temperature.
    Lastly, I am unable to figure out cost differences for a small covered indoor pool for a natural gas vs heat pump vs electric to evaluate if extra money for heat pump or natural gas is worth it. It may be worth only for outdoor install.

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    I installed a 7 x 13 (2500 gallon) Endless Pool in a new 16 by 16 bump out in the back of a new garage. I keep the pool at 81 degrees and the room at about 75 degrees. Between my wife and I, it's in use 6 days a week for about 30 minutes each use. We do have the manual retractable security cover and it rolls much easier than I had imagined. You can just walk back with the cover while in the pool and finish closing it once out of the pool.

    I also have the standard 5.5 kw heater but it is mounted at at front of the pool so has no distance to travel. It's in an insulated cavity that is about the same temperature as the pool. (Could your lines or the space they travel in be better insulated?) My electric bill is only up about $12-$17 dollars a month which covers the motor running for 12 hours a month (30 minutes x 24 days) and the continuous running of the pump, heater and UV light.

    I have been trying to figure out how warm the air in our pool room needs to be to keep the pool heater use at it's minimum. I have a kw meter on the 1500 watt convection heater that is used to heat the room. I'd like to install a meter to the EP water quality system so I could better know how much electricity it it using and when.

    I don't think your heater is the problem per se. Keeping the pool at nearly hot tub temperature would require some extra support. The USA Swimming site (http://www.usaswimming.org/ViewMiscArti ... temId=3548) recommends keeping therapy and rehab pools at 91 to 95. I'm thinking you could reduce your electric bill if you (1) lowered the pool temp to low 90's (2) kept the room about 5 degrees cooler (which might include installing insulated window shades on those long beautiful windows) (3) installed the manual security cover and (4) made sure the lines back the heater were not loosing heat.

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    Thank you for the advice.
    I went ahead and bought a 11kw raypak heater on suggestion of endless pool and the pool salesman although the pool person did not have any experience and made me sign a disclaimer that it may not be enough.
    My heater is next to the pool, and the pump with lines going under concrete slab. It is too late too insulate now. The pool sides however were insulated with foam insulation prior to backfill. Any recommendations regarding ph management for a small pool will also be appreciated.

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    Re: Endless Pool Heating Question

    I use baking soda to increase total alkalinity. Keeping the ph between 7.3 and 7.5 feels comfortable for us. About twice a week, when ph readings hit or exceed 7.5 I add 4-6 Tbs of a Ph down product. We use two to three ounces of bleach each day after swimming in the morning when chlorine levels are around .5 ppm. I keep it this low because we use both the Nature Two cartridges and I have the UV light plumbed into the water quality system.

    Did you go with the manual retractable security cover? I am fanatical about keeping humidity and temperature right where I want them. I'm always struck by how the humidity increases so quickly in my small room once I pull back the security cover. It's only vinyl so I wouldn't expect it to help much with temperature but I think because it keeps evaporation down it also reduces heat loss.

    Steven
    Brunswick, Maine

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