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Thread: Pool physics

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Pool physics

    Hi all,

    2 years ago I had my inground built and it went great. Then last year we installed a heatpump for heating the water. It still went fine, but near the end of summer it started cutting off with HP error messages. I cleaned the filter, dipped it overnight, let it dry, it did the same. I even remember I took it out again to clean it with the shopvac and it still did it!

    So I call the heatpump guy, he comes, and tells me the HP is caused by low flow, usually because cartridge filters restrain water too much. He even tells me to run the pool with no filter for a few days, and call him if it HP again. So it does it again, he comes again, now tells me my pump might now be able to pump fast enough. So I call my buddy that has his pool car company, he checks into it and tells me it's running ok. So the heatpump guy comes back and now tells me something like: Look, I'm a heatpump tech, not a pool tech. However, I don't think it's normal that the water is so low in your motor.

    Effectively, you can see the water flowing into the motor. So I called the pool guy and now he says it's normal because it's pressure and it's boiling and blah blah blah. However, I tried running the motor without the basket into it for a few minutes and now the motor keeps its water! All I see is a bubble the size of a quarter!

    Now, is it possible the motor basket is restraining the water flow by itself? or is it restraining the cover from being able to go back into is place? I was also thinking of eliminating all 90 degree angles and either install flexible pipes or 45 degree angles. Also, would I win something if I changed my whole apparent plumping for clear pvc instead of white?

    thanks for the help!
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    You shouldn't be able to see any bubbles in the basket before the pump. A loose lid will cause that to happen, so removing it and putting it back on may have been what you needed to fix it. It's a good idea to keep the O-ring lubed with pool lube.

    Welcome to TFP!
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    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    Welcome to TFP.

    What you have is a suction side air leak. It's possible that the basket is preventing the lid from sealing. Have you cleaned and lubed the lid o-ring? I'd start there.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: Pool physics

    Hi John and Dave,
    Thanks for the quick replies, it's really appreciated to have support so quickly!
    I'll check into the ring part on my lunch break, thanks for the suggestion.

    Will changing the 90 degrees elbows for 45 degrees help in water flow?
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    Quote Originally Posted by philwire
    Will changing the 90 degrees elbows for 45 degrees help in water flow?
    Probably not. Two 45s isn't much better than a 90. Maybe post a picture and we could evaluate any issues that might not be obvious.
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    Not enough that you'd even be able to tell.

    As JT said, post a pic and we'll take a look at it.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Pool physics

    Ok guys here are pictures

    on the first picture as you can see I'm thinking of correcting from the motor to the filter with either 45s or a flexible that will loop to the right then under the motor intake to go straight to the filter.

    on the 3rd one it was to show the bubbling.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    Clean and lube the o-ring good and see if that helps.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: Pool physics

    Hi again,
    So I replaced the o-ring of the motor, and of the cartridge filter. this morning I still had the problem, but then I remembered the heatpump guy told me to try without the cartridge in the filter. So I gave it a new try, removed the cartridge, restarted the whole thing, and BAM the motor got all filled up! I put the cartridge back, and since then I cant get the motor to fill up completely. The highest I got it to was to about over the handles of the glass. right now you don't see the water flowing like Niagara falls, it just flows quite nicely with some space on the top.

    Now what should I try?
    Also, I found out that when I put the filter in backwash the motor tends to fill up but it wont last long. then I figured my filter was emptying so maybe my backwash pipe should be higher than the filter? I'm so confused!
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: Pool physics

    philwire - did the heatpump work okay when you removed the cartridge and got good suction? also, do you know what the filter gauge reads with and without the cartridge installed?
    Walnut Creek, CA. 18k gallon Pebble Sheen + 1.5k gallon IG spa, 1.5hp whisperflo main pump, Pentair clean and clear 420, Intellichlor IC20, Polaris 360 w/booster,Jandy lite 2 natural gas, plus solar with Heliomatic 5000 controller and 3/4 hp booster

  11. Back To Top    #11
    harleysilo's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    I didn't think people had cartridge filters set up to backwash? Is the filter clean? Do you have a spare or new one?
    18'x43' Sport Pool
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  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Re: Pool physics

    Hi guys - the filter is brand new (one week old) and it gives a reading of about 20 psi. I'll go check without the filter to make sure again.
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    South Shore of Montreal, Quebec
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    Re: Pool physics

    ok guys without the cartridge in it's also at 20 psi so it should be working ok

    Side question... If the heatpump's output is higher than the motor or slighty, wont gravity have an effect on it?
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    South Shore of Montreal, Quebec
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    Re: Pool physics

    ok guys I put the cartridge back in, put the cover back, turned on the motor and..... quickly reopened the skimmer and bottom drains valve (forgot to open them before the motor) and now the glass is full. or almost, now it has a bubble like when the cartridge was not there. is there a risk for me to damage my motor if I start it that way??

    wanted to attach a file of the motor glass with just a bubble about one quarter the size of the glass but there seem to be server problems.
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  15. Back To Top    #15
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    If the filter is reading 20 PSI with or without the filters, then I am pretty sure that you have enough pressure at the heat pump. However, it could be that the pressure switch in the heat pump is not set properly or maybe not working properly. Normally, you shouldn't have to change that but there is no telling what the installer did. Also, is the equipment pad elevated above the pool and if so by how much?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Pool physics

    well the concrete of the equipment pad is level with the pool's sidewalk so the water might have about a foot to lift up. would it help if the motor was lower than the skimmers level? I could dig a place for it between the concrete pad and the fence...
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Pool physics

    oh btw I havent had any trouble with the heatpump since I changed the filter. Now I really want my motor glass to fill up with water and have a minimum of bubble in it. I think fixing this will fix all my problems once and for all.
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  18. Back To Top    #18
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    Quote Originally Posted by philwire
    ok guys I put the cartridge back in, put the cover back, turned on the motor and..... quickly reopened the skimmer and bottom drains valve (forgot to open them before the motor) and now the glass is full. or almost, now it has a bubble like when the cartridge was not there. is there a risk for me to damage my motor if I start it that way??

    wanted to attach a file of the motor glass with just a bubble about one quarter the size of the glass but there seem to be server problems.
    A quarter sized bubble is not an issue. So are you saying with the skimmer and main drains open (full flow), that there is still an issue with the heat pump? The problem may not have anything to do with the filter. It just might have been a coincidence.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Pool physics

    ok I just went back and the bubble got bigger. any other suggestions ?
    Don't have the exact gallons of my inground pool, I just know it's pretty small. A Silverado would barely fit into it I guess.
    Using a 200sqf cartridge filter, new from 06/15/2013 - broken pressure gauge
    Using vinyl and a 1hp pump
    Also using a heatpump and cleaning with salt.
    If you need more info, ask and I'll be glad to fill in and even take pictures!

  20. Back To Top    #20
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pool physics

    The bubble is not an issue unless the water level in the pump basket drops below the inlet pipe. But to my other question, is the heat pump still having a problem or did you solve that issue?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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