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Thread: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Hey BBBB (The 4th one is Bretheren)

    Got a friend who's finally tired of being pool stored. He's got a ~ 16000g irregularly shaped IGP, vinyl liner, that he acquired with a foreclosure house he bought 2 years ago.

    Last year, he argued and fought with it, spent thousands at the LPS, and eventually got it "clear" with a whopping giant dose of "shock" and then "maintained" it with pucks all year.

    This year he's unable to keep it clear for more than a day or so...it just keeps "turning green", and he's already $300 into the LPS, and is tired of it. His most recent efforts have included dumping a bunch of stuff to "get rid of metals" and a boatload of pucks and shock into the thing, to no avail. He researched online and found out about "chlorine lock" and that's when he called me. He's seen our sparkly BBB pool, and decided he doesn't care what it takes any more, he's ready for a trouble free pool.

    SO...I've offered to help. We started today by taking my TF 100 over to his place.

    The numbers that matter:

    CYA : 100+. My estimate is 120, but obviously the lines stop at 100, so i may be off. Tested this 3 times, came out right around 120 each time, so I'm pretty confident in this number.
    pH : 7.8
    FC : 8-10 - tested this 3 times as well, got 17 drops, 19 drops, and 21 drops the 3 times. I know very high levels of CYA and FC can make this test a bit flaky at times, so I'm going to go with 9.
    CC : 1.0 (Really kind of expected this to be a bit higher)
    Pool condition : Pale green, unable to see the bottom of the 4' area.

    --------

    Our plan so far :

    1) Buy a TF 100. Not tomorrow, not when he got around to it, but tonight. Immediately, if not sooner. He assured me one would be on the way ASAP.

    2) Drain 1/3-1/2 of the pool (I told him to drain as much as he felt comfortable draining without worrying about his liner, but no more than half, since we're not sure about the water table there) and refill. The goal here is to get the CYA down to 60-70 or so, where things are at least a bit more manageable. Heck, I'd even take 80.

    3) Stop throwing things into the pool, dangit.

    4) Starting Wed/Thurs, with a refilled pool and armed with a TF-100, we're going to learn the shock process, and shock this thing back to health snad sparkly goodness.

    5) Send him to Pool School!

    --------

    So...2 questions for you masters?

    First...am I missing anything? I don't think I am, but I want to avoid any gotchyas.

    Second, I KNOW he's used copper-based algae treatments in there. What is our best plan of attack to address whatever copper may remain in the water?
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    I'm not an expert but I'm sure one will be along. Did you use the pool calculator to estimate the water replacement? Did you dilute your sample water with tap water to get a more accurate CYA reading?.......I might start with that to determine proper level of water replacement.
    18*36*23 true "L" vinyl IG 29,000 gallons. SWG. TF-100 test kit.
    http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Great plan.
    20x40 inground, fiberglass 3 foot down then vinyl.
    33,000 gal
    BBB
    1.95HP Hayward Super II pump
    Sta-Rite System 3 DE 37 sq ft
    Jandy Lite 2 400 Natural Gas heater.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    No... I think you about covered it.

    Drop the CYA, adjust pH and go.

    [center:3w2o0y0e][/center:3w2o0y0e]
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    techguy's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    I am not an expert but you sound like you off to a good start.

    Drain, refill, test, take action using liquid CL.

    Drain as much of any muck in the pool out at the same time.
    -- Guy --
    10K gallons in 21' Round 52 inch wall Aqualeader AG, Hayward Power Flow LX 1.5 HP pump motor, Hayward Perflex EC50AC DE filter w/Cellulose, Wide mouth skimmer, 2013 new Diver Dan (craigslist) to replace the faded old Hayward AquaBug. TF-100

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by AimeeH
    I'm not an expert but I'm sure one will be along. Did you use the pool calculator to estimate the water replacement? Did you dilute your sample water with tap water to get a more accurate CYA reading?.......I might start with that to determine proper level of water replacement.
    In this case, no. To be brutally honest, I went in with the presumption that I would find a sky-high CYA reading...and I did. Knowing whether it's 120 or 130 really isn't going to change the plan of attack here...it needs to come down as much as is practical. Once the refill is done, I'll do another reading of course, and then adjust the plan from there if we decide it's still too high to shock with a practical amount of bleach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320
    Drop the CYA, adjust pH and go.
    Ah yes, I did indeed forget to mention that we will monitor and adjust ph as necessary of course, using some pH up and/or dry acid, both of which he has on hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by techguy
    Drain as much of any muck in the pool out at the same time.
    We DO have that one thing going for us. He's run the vacuum like crazy, so the pool is about as "clean" as you can make it. No leaves, twigs, dirt, etc.
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    I agree the diluted CYA test would give you a little better idea of the true CYA level. But a 50% water change should put you in the ballpark ... or tell him to do two 1/3 replacements and that would lower the CYA by 55%.

    On the plus side, replacing the water is also removing some of the copper. But, I am fuzzy myself on how to handle metals in the water beyond this: pool-school/metal%20stains
    Although I think you want the water clear before you would do an AA treatment if required. Or maybe you should add the sequestrant before the shock process? Someone else will have to chime in.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    So we can do a before, during and after.

    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    I like the looks of the pool itself, just not too crazy about that colored water......
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Its a really beautiful pool...the whole house is gorgeous in fact. And the friend in question is quite the craftsman, so he's done many upgrades/refreshes/refurbs, to make it truly stunning.

    I'm really quite excited about the idea that soon the pool will live up to the rest of the home, AND make his life easier at the same time!
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Sorry to say, the transformation won't be too exciting. Those evil black swamps make much better before and afters
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320
    Sorry to say, the transformation won't be too exciting. Those evil black swamps make much better before and afters
    I know, I know...but it'll still be rewarding, and we'll have another BBBer to boot!
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Mod Squad woodyp's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    A lovely little pool in OZ!.........but I don't see any Munchkins. Are they afraid to get in! He's gonna end up one happy camper.
    16x32x52" Steel Cornelius Miramar AGP Vinyl liner 13,100 gal. Buried 2 ft.
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Personally, I'd be prepared to do two water replacements. I wouldn't really want to settle for 80 CYA; I'd prefer 50 for more manageable shock and maintenance levels, though I wouldn't feel bad if a single 50% replacement got me to 60.
    Maryland
    18000 gallon plaster pool, Pentair Triton II sand filter, Purex Triton Minimax Plus 300 gas heater, 1.0 HP two-speed Pentair Superflo, Polaris 380
    Caldera Marino hot tub, 360 gallon

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    If it were mine, I'd agree, Soupy. I'd shoot for 30-50 CYA.

    In this case, however, let's just say that the friend and I are dealing with some...impatient family.

    So, I've suggested to him that this water change should bring CYA to at least something manageable...the 60-70 range...and then this fall, when closing, another one will get it down to a nice sweet-spot for next season.

    Gotta work with what they give ya, man.
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    your near nashville, me too. with the fact you got 32" rain this year so far and a few inches the last two days alone.
    have him run the vaccume to waste position and not through the filter every time it rains. he did stop using tablets right?
    1; I just would add the bleach every day and brush the sides one day (just after adding the bleach)
    2; add bleach the next day brush bottom.
    3rd; add 4 or 5 bottles of 8.25% bleach run filter 24/7 a over night, rest it day 4
    vaccume bottom to waste.
    repeat until clean clear water.
    I'm in Columbia....here you get charged extra for as much water you add to pool you are charged for
    sewerage water treatment.
    pool looks to be vinyl does it have a SWG?
    if it is a vinyl pool do not drain it too far. the sides will come off the walls.
    and I do not know how much shock you can add before the color bleaches out.
    my preforeclosed home had a CYA of over 310 I had to over come.
    18X36 Grecian 24400 est., pacfab sand Triton II, 1.5hp AOSmith, clormatic 2

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by eaamon
    your near nashville, me too. with the fact you got 32" rain this year so far and a few inches the last two days alone.
    have him run the vaccume to waste position and not through the filter every time it rains.
    He does.
    he did stop using tablets right?
    Yes
    1; I just would add the bleach every day and brush the sides one day (just after adding the bleach)
    2; add bleach the next day brush bottom.
    3rd; add 4 or 5 bottles of 8.25% bleach run filter 24/7 a over night, rest it day 4
    vaccume bottom to waste.
    repeat until clean clear water.
    We'll follow the shock process, testing regularly.
    I'm in Columbia....here you get charged extra for as much water you add to pool you are charged for sewerage water treatment.
    Not my pool, friend's.
    pool looks to be vinyl does it have a SWG?
    No, see OP
    if it is a vinyl pool do not drain it too far. the sides will come off the walls.
    Have mentioned several times that pool is being drained as is practical.
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    You have a great plan. I'd like to see that CYA down around 50, but like you say, you gotta' go with the hand you are dealt.

    His shock value with a CYA of 70 will be about 28 ppm so be prepared for him to flinch on that and you will have to coax him repeatedly to keep it there until his pool clears. People just aren't used to that. The reward will be stunning.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    techguy's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    I don't have this issue but I have heard that if you let the water/sewer district know you have filled a pool, they may wave the waste charges on the number of gallons used in the fill.
    -- Guy --
    10K gallons in 21' Round 52 inch wall Aqualeader AG, Hayward Power Flow LX 1.5 HP pump motor, Hayward Perflex EC50AC DE filter w/Cellulose, Wide mouth skimmer, 2013 new Diver Dan (craigslist) to replace the faded old Hayward AquaBug. TF-100

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    gboulton's Avatar
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    Re: Will some of you BBB masters backstop me please?

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    You have a great plan. I'd like to see that CYA down around 50, but like you say, you gotta' go with the hand you are dealt.
    Thanks man, appreciate the support.
    His shock value with a CYA of 70 will be about 28 ppm so be prepared for him to flinch on that and you will have to coax him repeatedly to keep it there until his pool clears. People just aren't used to that. The reward will be stunning.
    I've prepped him for the fact he'll need "an unholy boatload of bleach"...but, at least it's better than "more bleach than your truck can carry" at 100+.

    He ordered his TF100 tonight, so if you got one for somewhere in Middle TN, stamp it with a smiley face and mark it "Good luck, Scott!"

    Quote Originally Posted by techguy
    I don't have this issue but I have heard that if you let the water/sewer district know you have filled a pool, they may wave the waste charges on the number of gallons used in the fill.
    Yep, they'll do that here where I am, once a year. Just note the starting and ending point on the meter, and they'll deduct the sewage charge that amount. Not sure if they'll do it in his community or not.
    -Gordon
    Pool School helps me maintain my 13,500G 24' x 48" ASP with Sand Filtration using a TF100 Test Kit and Pool Calculator.
    Remember, the Shock Process should be followed until : 1. CC is less than 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less and, 3. The water is crystal clear.
    --I didn't buy my pool to swim in it. I bought my pool to watch my wife swim in it. :wink:

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