Want to add CH without clouding pool

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Re: Want to add CA without clouding pool

My filter's top is not joined to the piping with unions - they are glued. A basic question - can you remove the top without cutting the pipes?
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Not without unions. Very expedient on your PB's part but very short-sighted.

Sorry to suggest so many projects but I would cut it loose, inspect and clean the sand, and reinstall with unions.

Check the freeboard while you're in there...sand should be about 2/3 full.

Just another note, it seems you are trying to blend pool store advice with TFP advice. It won't work......you'll end up in the middle trying to decide who to listen to. You should pick one source or the other.
 
Thanks, Dave. I've usually gone with the board advice for years, but my issue was not clearing up. I have invested a lot of time researching old threads both here and on the poolforum. Over the years, I've laughed at much advice coming out of the pool stores as there are surely inept sales people that don't know much. I've turned many people onto this site, as well, because BBB has worked incredibly well for me. But, in this situation, I am trying to use my best judgment and experience with my pool to clear the issue - an issue I've never had before in 7 years of owning the pool. The sales person at Leslies seemed to know what she was talking about with regards to pool operation and did not try to sell me a ton of chemicals. I think those of us who've been on the board for awhile are usually able to spot sales people that don't know much. From being familiar with the customary board advice (ensure water balance, hold chlorine overnight,etc), I felt that the next best step was a floc, and, from what I read about alum, it seemed like a good choice considering it's been around a very long time and has been time tested. Maybe I made the wrong choice! I do not think I want to add anything to the pool until it is clear.

Anyway, thanks for the advice on the unions. I agree. I'm having the unit serviced tomorrow, so I will make sure I get unions so I can do the work myself. I'm not comfortable with cutting and gluing pipes myself, so I'll be watching how the service guy does it.
 
Update. The pool pump remained off for 35 hours as I was letting the Alum "work." Nothing was happening - very disappointing. Pool company came today to replace the sand so I have new sand and a new pressure gauge. Clean pressure measures 17.5. Pump back in operation for about 2.5 hours and can't tell if much is clearing but getting no pressure rise, which is a bit disheartening. The pool guy and most others are very shocked that the floc didn't work and remained in suspension. Still, the guy said the filter should clear the pool in a few days, but at the same time, was not familiar with Alum.

The Alum took down my Ph a bit, so added some Borax to get back to 7.2. Added some bleach to get my Cl level to 5.

Given the Alum is now the key issue, does anyone know if normal sand filtering will remove the Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) ? 4lbs were added per the instructions. I'd hate to resort to changing the water but need to know if I should be ready for that.
 
I'm ready to close the pool! Although I checked the pool a few times since the sand change this afternoon, I didn't notice sand building up near the returns. They guys must have broken one of the laterals while changing the sand. If I put a skimmer sock in front of the returns, it is collecting sand! If I try to vacuum all the sand it is also shooting all back to the pool. So whether vacuuming or not sand more and more sand is entering the pool. Have to use the filter on recirculate for now until I can get that problem fixed.

Would still appreciate a response if anyone knows if Alum will successfully filter out or am I in for a water change?
 
Update. Happy 4th of July everybody.

Filter was fixed late last night. The cause of the sand shooting back into the pool was a broken vertical pipe. A whole new assembly was installed.

Pool's been filtering now for only 12 hours. I know new sand take a while to settle before the filter is totally effective. So, far pool looks no different to me - still very cloudy. Pressure on filter is just about the same - maybe up a hair (1/4?).

Cl=4.5
Ph=7.2
CYA=60
Alk=80

Maybe need some pool-owner-patience now, but I wonder if this Alum will ever filter out? I wouldn't think shocking will help. Advice anyone?
 
I wish I was smarter about this stuff and could help you. I truly know how frustrating it is to put in all this work and not see any results.

I have had problems that spanned years without anyone being able to figure out what was wrong. It turned out that my CH was too low for too long. I found one lone post on this forum and their remedy is working for me. (I just need to be patient.) Because of the product I'm using to get rid of all that white 'oxidation' (for lack of a better word), my pool would get very cloudy after we scrubbed at the sides. (Which I fully expected.) We've used Pool Logic's Dazzle and it clears it right up in a few hours. We've used similar products before with the same results.

While I don't have the know-how to help you out other than suggesting a clarifier, I did want to let you know that I sympathize with your plight and hope you figure out what's wrong so that you can enjoy the pool.
 
Thanks! Just ran outside to do a fresh test. 0 CC. And, retested the CYA and reconfirmed CYA at 60. Might be a tad below the 60 line.

The pool has not been using an unusual amount of Cl, and since the Alum clouded the pool, I don't think the issue is organic. But, if folks then shocking could help, I could try that. I know that's cheap enough and won't do any further harm!
 
I just thought of something. If Alum is Aluminum Sulfate, and Aluminum is metal, could having a decent amount of sequestrant (Metal Magic) have interfered with the Alum working ? Reaching for straws here, but I do have Metal Magic normally in the water. Perhaps the Alum is now in suspension and therefore is not easily filtering out ? If anyone thinks that's the case, perhaps there is a goodway of ridding the pool of sequestrant or breaking it down faster?
 
Please add your pool and equipment specs in your sig. Go to User Control Panel (top,left), Profile & Edit Sig.

Have you tried adding some DE to the sand filter? You need to be around to monitor psi. Directions in Pool School.
 

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Pool is 10K IG Fiberglass, Hayward 1.5HP Superpump (brand new), Hayward 24" Sand Filter. I updated my profile - thanks for the tip.

I usually add DE (per the recommendation on TFP), but haven't since it's brand new sand just put in yesterday evening. But, I will definitely do that after about 48 hours to increase filtering.

Frustrating issue to say the least because it's not like any situation I've read on this forum (least I don't think so). But, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking what I'm experiencing is a bad combination of Sequestrant mixing with the Aluminum Sulfate.
 
Is the Metal Magic you are using the Proteam brand? This MSDS indicates that it is HEDP, though doesn't give the percentage. HEDP, aka Etidronic Acid, is an acid that loses at least two of its protons in pool water so is negatively charged. Alum floc is positively charged. It is known that polymeric anionic (negatively charged) metal sequestrants such as polyacrylic acid (PAA) are incompatible with polymeric cationic (positively charged) clarifiers such as Polyquat and will produce a precipitated mess though fortunately it's usually easy to filter out. However, I'm not so sure that HEDP will produce a precipitate with alum floc.

Regardless of how one gets the pool to become cloudy, it nevertheless should be able to be filtered out if the filtration is fine enough. The DE in the sand filter should have helped and I suggest you try that again. Did you notice any rise in pressure? When you put in the new sand did you notice the old sand having channeling or was clumped?

Is the water a traditional cloudy or does it look more like milk? If it's milky, you could have formed a colloid and that may require very fine filtration using The Slime Bag, but with alum floc I doubt this is the case. Also, with alum floc, it precipitates more effectively at low pH so should be closer to 7.0 though 7.2 is OK (but 7.5 or higher is not).
 
Happy 4th Richard and thanks for responding - I was hoping you would. The sequestrant is Proteam Metal Magic.

The new sand has been filtering for about 17 hours - I was going to wait awhile to add DE, but if we don't think it matters, I'll add it now. The pressure is up 1/2 lb - that's it. What i find interesting when I read directions for Aluminate Sulfate products they recommend to initially use the product and circulate it in the pool. If one does not have a circulate feature, they recommend filter until the pressure goes up 5lbs before one turns the pump off. So, this tells me that the Alum is something that should be able to be filtered quite handily, so I'm also a bit mystified as to why the pressure in the filter is not rising more quickly.

To your question on old sand, I noticed clumping here and there, but was unable to observe channeling because the pool company already had the sand out of the filter when I arrived home. Of course the tech told me the sand was not in great condition.

I have no reason to believe the filter is not working.

I'd say the water is cloudy, not milky. I have 3 steps going into the pool and the 3rd step is visible, but hazy.

My pool usually runs at 7.2ph. After adding the floc, it went down to 6.8, and I added Borax to get it back up to 7.2. Tested this AM and it's 7.2 High Ph is never an issue for me.

I've also raised the Cl to shock for my CYA level. Since I'm not swimming, bleach won't hurt. I've also drained about 1/3 of the pool this AM and am replacing with fresh water right now.

Based on your response, it looks like my theory of sequestrant being a possible issue is probably not correct?
 
skillset said:
Based on your response, it looks like my theory of sequestrant being a possible issue is probably not correct?
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It's still possible, but as a general rule you don't want to mix metal sequestrants with clarifiers/flocculants. And generally there is no need for the latter.

If the DE doesn't help, you could consider getting The Slime Bag. That'll take anything out of the water down to 1 micron.
 
Thanks! I viewed the slime bag video on you tube - seems straightforward. I'm guessing you think that even if the alum is being sequestered, the slime bag will get it?

I have a micro skimmer sock on the skimmer basket but I'm assuming the slime bag is much better.

Do you think the pool is safe for swimming once cl comes down from shock? Wife is a bit squeamish about letting kids in the way it looks.

Lastly, will a high Cl breakdown the HEDP more quickly than a normal Cl ? Since we're not sure HEDP is not the culprit, would like to get it broken down as fast as I can.

I'll keep you posted - maybe somebody can also learn from this experience.

Jenischmeni - appreciate the sympathy!!
 
You shouldn't swim in the pool if it's so cloudy that you cannot see the floor drain so could not see if someone were drowning at the bottom.

Yes a higher chlorine level will break down the HEDP, though if you used a lot of it then it will take a lot of time.
 
Thanks! The partial drain did help and the filter rose about 1 lb overnight. Pool is looking better. Still cloudy, but from above, you can see the bottom everywhere. Relieved but still a ways to go. Also - Cl of 14 held overnight so comfortable nothing organic going on. If I didn't have company tomorrow, I would let the filter just continue to do it's thing, and try to clear it up in a week or so, but I am going to do another 1/3 drain/refill today. So, by tomorrow, I believe the pool will look ok.

My question on swimming was safety b/c of the Alum in the water - would it be harmful to actually swim in it.

Thanks again for your responses!

I think there is a big lessoned learned with HEDP products and floc and I hope this post serves as a potential warning to those who consistently use sequestrant and are thinking about using aluminum sulfate. Looking at the ingredients of other floc, some are aluminum polycarbide, so not sure if those products might have the same effect as aluminum sulfate. But, beware!
 
Appreciate the response - I swam alone today and the water seemed ok to swim to me! Still quite disappointed in how the pool is looking. While I can see the bottom, after 2 partial drains, visibility underwater is about 1/2 the pool length. I also ordered the Slimebag today so will try that next week when it comes in. Thanks for that suggestion. It will be interesting to see if that can clear the pool.

In the meantime, I'll be patient and let the filter run 24 x 7 and hoping the diluted Alum filters out and the Proteam product breaks down. One unhappy camper with the Alum.
 
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