Pool School Overload vs Forum Research

[Jenischmeni]

I'm sure y'all probably get tired of so many questions and I've been reading everything that I can get my eyes on, but I feel like I'm seeing a lot of conflicting advice. The more I read, the more I feel confused. I've read Pool School until I feel like I can almost recite it word for word! LOLOL

I can post my test results (using my TF100 kit) but that's not really my problem. My problem is that I keep seeing different target goals and I'm not sure where to set my goals since there seems to be a lot of variance in "target goals".

Pool School's recommended levels for chlorine for fiberglass/SWG is 3-5. These same figures are in the "Water Balance for SWG". Yet, I've read countless postings that say 3 ppm will not hold off algae blooms in a SWG pool. I've read recommended levels of 5-7 and 7-9.

Pool's School's recommended levels for pH say pH 7.5-7.8 (seems standard for all pools, really) but on the page for "Water Balance for SWG" it says "Adjust your pH to 7.5-7.6 and not any lower. Monitor your pH and when it climbs to 7.8 add acid to lower it back to 7.5-7.6 (This is also IMPORTANT!)" Yet, I keep reading (over and over and over) about getting the pH down to 7.2 when TA is high. (Mine is very high and I cannot seem to get it down. My fill water is very high in TA too - about 210) If I'm constantly reducing it to 7.2 like advised on the "Reducing TA" page, then I'm not following the "Very Important" part about not letting it fall below 7.5.

Both pages agree TA 60-80, with the "Water Balance for SWG" page saying "(This is IMPORTANT!)" This is important? I keep reading other posts that say not to worry quite as much about TA and it will eventually fall into place. Or....I'll read something else (like pool calculators) that say adjust TA first, pH second. Which is right?

CH figures about the same in both places except SWG page says 250 in the description but 220-320 at the bottom.

See? Here's the thing: I'm not trying to be snarky, but I want to set up true and accurate goals in my pool calculator and know exactly what to add and when to add it. I want to know if I should be adding muriatic acid (in little bits here and there for the slow process of getting this down). Or? Should I be raising this pH to get it back up to at least 7.5? (I'm at 7.4 as I type this.) My water is aerating in an attempt to keep pH up and not let it fall while hoping the TA comes down (it isn't). I'd really love to be able to stop aerating the water and be able to put on my solar cover so that I'm not losing any chlorine to the sun and can actually work on warming up my water.

See my dilemma? Have I just read waaaaaaaay too many postings? Am I on TFP overload?

 

[Isaac-1]

Ok I will try to take on a few of these,

FC is going to depend on CYA levels per the chart in pool school, pools with SWG's seem to manage being algae free at slighlty lower FC levels for their CYA level than manually dosed pools, there are several theories as to why, but most revolve around much higher chlorine levels as the water passes through the SWG cell. If you want a more exact target number look at the FC/CYA chart in Chem 201, these numbers are often at higher precision than tools typically need to be tested to, therefore the range shown in pool school.

pH range is slightly different depending on pool surface, I think the not below 7.5 is noted so it is safe for all pool finishes

TA is not all that important, it is a fine tuning item, however if your going to adjust it and adjust pH at the same time you should adjust TA first since it influences pH.

Ike

 

[linen]

I'll also take a shot at clearing up some of the confusion.

Pool School's recommended levels for chlorine for fiberglass/SWG is 3-5. These same figures are in the "Water Balance for SWG". Yet, I've read countless postings that say 3 ppm will not hold off algae blooms in a SWG pool. I've read recommended levels of 5-7 and 7-9.

SWG pools can be safely maintained at slightly lower FC levels than a regular chlorinated pool, hence the different ranges.

Most of us use the poolcalculator.com to get our levels (the pool calculator was developed by JasonLion the administrator of this site). For example, if your cya is 70 ppm, then poolcalculator recommends for a swg pool a minimum FC level of 3, but if your cya is 80 ppm, poolcalculator recommends for a swg pool a minimum FC level of 4.

Pool's School's recommended levels for pH say pH 7.5-7.8 (seems standard for all pools, really) but on the page for "Water Balance for SWG" it says "Adjust your pH to 7.5-7.6 and not any lower. Monitor your pH and when it climbs to 7.8 add acid to lower it back to 7.5-7.6 (This is also IMPORTANT!)" Yet, I keep reading (over and over and over) about getting the pH down to 7.2 when TA is high. (Mine is very high and I cannot seem to get it down. My fill water is very high in TA too - about 210) If I'm constantly reducing it to 7.2 like advised on the "Reducing TA" page, then I'm not following the "Very Important" part about not letting it fall below 7.5.

When lowering TA, it goes much faster if you lower your ph down to 7.2 instead of 7.5. It will not hurt anything to go down to 7.2, but if you are not in the process of lower TA, then there often is no reason to go below 7.5.

Both pages agree TA 60-80, with the "Water Balance for SWG" page saying "(This is IMPORTANT!)" This is important? I keep reading other posts that say not to worry quite as much about TA and it will eventually fall into place. Or....I'll read something else (like pool calculators) that say adjust TA first, pH second. Which is right?

With a swg, it is somewhat more important to maintain a low TA. One reason is the swg plates can get deposits on them...though even at higher TA levels other levels have to be off for this to happen. The second reason is swgs tend to cause ph to rise and the higher the TA the faster the ph will rise. If your swg is not having build up, and if you are vigilant on watching your ph, then you can just let TA come down on its own as you add the required Muriatic acid as needed.

CH figures about the same in both places except SWG page says 250 in the description but 220-320 at the bottom.

Close enough , yes we should standardize that.

Post your numbers and we can help give you some targets (one size does not always fit all).

 

[Richard320]

It's set up that way to see if you're really reading the links and paying attention. Congratulations. You passed.

 

[Jenischmeni]

Okay, what you are saying is making some sense. The ranges are contingent on well...the other ranges. (I hope I said that right.) At any rate, I think I'm understanding what you mean.

My numbers are wonky right now. We drained about 2/3rds of the water yesterday in preparation of a new SWG system arriving on Thursday. (Salt needed to be reduced from 5000 to 3500 and hubby wanted to caulk around the light and jets.) It's been our goal to have this pool water PERFECT so that the new system can hit the ground running. (You know, eliminate all the problems first - or as many as reasonably possible.)

I tested the water about an hour after filling had stopped and I tested after the pump had run for about 5 hours. This was probably about 4 hours after shutting off the hoses filling. (Note: I do have a water softener that was put on bypass in an effort to get as much CH as possible. Not that it helped much. After testing home water with WS on bypass, I've learned that my city water isn't nearly as hard as I was led to believe!)

Testing as soon as pool stopped filling and filter had a chance to run for about an hour or so:

FC .5
CC 0
pH 7.4
TA 210
CH 80 (This is right and this is what my home water w/o water softener tests out to be)
CYA 30
Salt (I can't remember but pool calculator said to add 40# to bring it to 3500)

I added:

18 oz (I think) of 12.75 chlorine as per the pool calculator

about 10# of Hardness Plus. (Pool calculator said 14# but it's already been my experience that I should always back off the recommended amounts. When I add the recommended amounts, I seem to overshoot the target. I'm guessing that I must be a little less than 7000K gallons because of the seating in the pool, maybe? I figured I could add more but taking it out means draining again.)

Added 8 oz muratic acid

Put the jets up to aerate the water

Added 20# of salt (figuring we could add more but taking it out is very hard)

Tested about 1 a.m.

FC 3.5
CC 0
pH 7.2
TA 140
CH 380 (I think this is wrong though and I must have miscounted)
CYA 30

This morning, we added about 1# of stabilizer in a sock in the skimmer. Spot checked the chlorine (using the Taylor kit), chlorine was around 3.

Tested this afternoon:

FC 0
CC 0
pH 7.4
TA 190
CH 320
CYA 40
Salt 3080

Added about 1/2 gallon of 12.75 chlorine

Tested after the sun went down (so I can check OCLT)

FC 9.5
CC 0
pH 7.4
TA 200
CH 320
CYA 40
Salt (waiting to check tomorrow morning)

Pump is running 24/7

Worth mentioning: There are chlorine tabs in the dispenser as we've shut off the old SWG which quit working. This is not a run-of-the-mill chlorine dispenser since it's a Frog Hybrid System (soon to be switched over to a CompuPool CPSC24 system). Our pool guy said we could do that and that it would work fine. We're just trying to hold ground via the tablets and liquid chlorine until the new SWG is up and running. (I'm skeptical that that reservoir works right with tablets but I only have to limp along for about 3-4 more days.)

Also worth mentioning: I have been testing my water twice a day, every day for the last two weeks. So much so that I've already had to place a reorder for reagents. I've been closely monitoring chlorine levels and adding chlorine if/as necessary to keep my level at least 3 ppm.

So.... Let's set some goals for MY pool for the new SWG! I want to fill in those blanks with MY target numbers and have the confidence that it's right.

Thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks!!! I think I can finally fall asleep tonight without all of this flooding my brain and keeping me awake!

Oops! One last question about salt: I've read conflicting reports about this. The Water Balance for SWG page says "Salt 200-400 ppm ABOVE recommended optimum level" yet forum postings say that having too high of salt is hard on the unit and it's better to run it a little under.

 

[Jenischmeni]

It's set up that way to see if you're really reading the links and paying attention. Congratulations. You passed.

Forgot to say that this totally cracked me up!!!!!!!

At least y'all can't accuse me or not reading the information. I'm glad I passed the test.

 

[duraleigh]

We get many similar threads on the forum frequently enough to say..........

Don't overthink the guidelines here at TFP.....they are guidelines....not absolutes.

Their purpose is to give you some references to help you understand more about pool water chemistry.

I say this often and I am sure folks think I am being preposterous but it's to make a point by exaggeration........ If the guideline for CH is 250-400, your hair does not fall out if your CH is 249 nor does the pool catch fire if the CH is 401. They are guidelines.....not absolutes.

Maintaining your parameters close to the guidelines is very important but your understanding of the reasons behind WHY you do that is much more important and lets you realize you have some leeway.

 

[ping]

I would leave your salt level alone for now and see what the SWG says when it is hooked up. Salt test strips are not the most accurate and what is most important is how the SWG behaves. You are only talking about a few hundred points on the salt and if the SWG is happy with the salt level, leave it alone.

I suggest you raise the CYA to 60 and measure it after a week to make sure you added the correct amount. Then raise it to 70-80 range after that. You don't want to overshoot the CYA as it will require draining some water.

If you want to slowly work on the TA, just lower the pH to 7.2 and when it raises to 7.8 lower it again to 7.2. This process will probably speed up when the SWG is installed as it will make the pH rise faster. Other than that I would put the cover on so you can start to enjoy the pool. Once the water is warm, then you can actively work on the TA with aeration.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I can't believe I read all that, but I did.

Now here's my take. First and foremost! If you have tablets in the "Frog" that invalidates the OCLT! You need to take them out or turn it off (if your sure it will stop the flow completely) and run it again.

Since you will have a swg and you have a fiberglass pool you should shoot for a CYA level of about 70 ppm and a FC of about 3 to 4 ppm. Your CH needs to be about 250 to 300 ppm and your TA should start about 60 ppm. If your TA is higher than that you can actively attack it by acid and aeration or you can just adjust the pH whenever it needs it and it'll come down on it's own as you're doing that. As Dave said, bad things aren't going to happen if you aren't exact as long as you're close.

To summarize:
pH = ~ 7.5 (Unless you're actively attacking high TA)
FC = 3-4 ppm
CC = 0 ppm
TA = ~ 60 ppm
CH = ~ 250-300 ppm
CYA = ~70 ppm

Now a question for you. Why do you have a water softener? I hope it's not for metals!

 

[Jenischmeni]

@ duraleigh - thanks! I did, at least, know my hair wouldn't fall out if CH was only 80 or else it would have fallen out 3 years ago! LOL You should know, though, that my hairdresser says that I have the absolute best "pool hair" that she's ever seen. She wouldn't even know that I had a pool if I hadn't told her.

@ping - I was kind of leaning towards holding off on adding more salt until the SWG arrives except that I've read (over and over) that you should not have the SWG running when you add salt. It seemed to me that it would be better to at least get my water to about 3200 before the new SWG arrived.

@ ping & Bama Rambler - I am working to get the CYA up. That's why a sock is sitting in the skimmer. It's about 75% dissolved. I hope to get it about 50-60 and then retest in a week. (Since I read that it takes about a week for it to show up accurately.)

@ Bama Rambler - I deserve that hammer to the head, really I do. That same thought about the tabs popped into my head as I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep. I had a complete "DUH" moment.

I'll shoot for those totals (unless someone thinks differently) but I'm already past your recommended levels for CH. (Glad I didn't add as much as the pool calculator said!)

I also agree that pH will rise when the new SWG arrives. That's something that I've always had to watch. Honestly, it's never been that big of deal. It worked out to be about once a week I added a few glugs of muratic acid which is crazy cheap. Prior to this site and pool school though, I never really paid any attention to TA. I'd always been told not to worry about it. high pH = high TA. If your water is high pH then it's alkaline. Adjust pH down, TA goes down. Thus, UNTIL THIS SITE, I never gave TA a moments notice. (Of course I never worried about CH either and look where that got me!)

Why do I have a water softener? Because we have hard water, LOL! Errr...at least we did. Traditionally, this area is known for having very hard ward. We've had water softeners for decades over 3 different homes. I do know it makes a difference because we can easily tell when we've used non-WS-water. It feels so much different. We like the way the WS makes our skin feel when we take showers, we use less soap, etc. It's better on pipes, shower heads, faucets, etc. (Why? Are you thinking about getting one?) While it's not used to remove metals, we do use rust removing salt and it does make a difference.

Here's my blond theory (means no real scientific data): We had the water softener installed about a year after we built the house 17 years ago. Since we've had this water softener for most of the whole time this house has existed, our pipes never had the chance to accumulate the usual deposits found in the usual homes without water softeners. Thus, even though my WS is on bypass, my water will still seem softer than the home next door. (Go ahead, laugh. I can take it! LOL)

So....thanks for the advice and thanks for not beating me up too badly. I think I'm suffering from the polar opposite of what you usually see. Rather than not read anything and simply post "Which test strip do you like the best?", I ordered the kit, I paid my dues to join the club, I read practically everything I could read. I think I'm just suffering from information overload.

 

[Bama Rambler]

You've done well. Don't worry too much about the CH. With the low CH fill water it'll come down as you backwash the filter and replace the water. I'd probably use softened water to refill for a while.

The reason I asked about the softener is that since you obviously didn't have high CH I wondered if it could be for metals, and if it was, you just filled your pool with metals by bypassing the softener to fill it. Luckily that's not the reason you have it.

We have very soft water here, as in zero CH!

 

[Jenischmeni]

There's a reason that all those wonderful limestone monuments have been yanked out of Indiana soil. Water passes in/over/around limestone, it picks up lime.

I've always heard that somewhere around the Bloomington, Indiana region, is a hole the size of the Washington Monument. I only live about 45 minutes from Bloomington and I have seem many of quarries. Anyone who has seen the movie "Hoosiers" has seen one of the quarries.

 

[chem geek]

:
FC .5
pH 7.4
TA 210
:
I added:
:
18 oz (I think) of 12.75 chlorine as per the pool calculator
about 10# of Hardness Plus
Added 8 oz muratic acid
Put the jets up to aerate the water
Added 20# of salt (figuring we could add more but taking it out is very hard)

FC 3.5
pH 7.2
TA 140
:
This morning, we added about 1# of stabilizer in a sock in the skimmer. Spot checked the chlorine (using the Taylor kit), chlorine was around 3.
Tested this afternoon:
:
FC 0
pH 7.4
TA 190
:
Added about 1/2 gallon of 12.75 chlorine
Tested after the sun went down (so I can check OCLT)

FC 9.5
pH 7.4
TA 200

Your numbers don't make sense so I think there's a problem with your testing, especially for TA. I suspect there might be static electricity on the dropper tip. The drops should be able to slowly come out and be well formed and dangle before dropping. If they are coming out in squirts then that's static electricity and you need to wipe the dropper tip with a moist cloth before adding drops. With the very small amount of acid you added at first, the TA would only drop by 3 ppm so not noticeable in the test -- you showed it dropping from 210 to 140. Then you show it rising to 190 and 200. I suspect maybe the 140 reading was wrong, though static electricity usually makes readings higher so maybe the 140 is right and the others are wrong.

Given the relatively small differences in pH movement from adding acid and adding chlorine, I suspect that your TA may in fact by high near 200 ppm. If you want to lower this, you need to be adding a lot more acid to get the pH down closer to 7.0 and then aerating. Though right now your pH doesn't seem to be climbing that quickly, after you get your SWG into the system you may find the pH rises a lot unless you get your TA lowered.

 

[Jenischmeni]

Thanks, chem geek. I do know about wiping the tip of the R-009 bottle between drops. They are single drops that hang off the tip before falling into the vial. I'm wondering if I incorrectly recorded that 140. Maybe it was 190 and I mistook the "4" for a "9" when I entered it into my phone app?

I've watched the videos and I've read the extended directions. (I have them printed out because I use the 10 ml version since I'm going through reagents so fast.) Am I perfect? Probably not. I do think I'm pretty decent though. (My magnetic stirrer arrived today! WOOT!)

I believe 200 is a very fair estimate of the TA. That's what it was when I tested it a few hours ago. Since I had to go to Leslie's to pick up two valves, I tested the water immediately before leaving and then took a water sample to them to have them test too. (Actually, it was kind of just a test comparison.)

My numbers:

pH 7.6 (water is still aerating)
FC 8.5
CC 0
TA 200
Calcium Hardness is either 350 or 300. I did it both ways (adding the 5 drops of R-0012 at the start and including in the total)
CYA 48
Salt 2840

Leslie's says:

FAC 0
TAC 0
(I argued with them about this saying there was NO way that I lost 8.5 ppm of chlorine in the 15 minutes it took me to drive there but they insist this is 0. Since he'd dumped out the water, he couldn't retest. The store argued that strips aren't accurate and I protested saying I was using a reagent kit. They said that home tests aren't accurate. I know they're wrong - I can smell the chlorine!)
pH 7.5
TA 160
CYA 30
CH 270
TDS 0
Salt 3300
Copper 0
Phosphates 1000 (Don't panic! I'm not going to do anything about that.)

I'm reluctant to remotely even trust Leslie's numbers since the kids were clueless. Case in point: A guy was wanting to buy liquid chlorine. They asked him how much and he didn't know. He said he had added 8# of shock on Sunday but had 0 chlorine today. They asked him how big was his pool and he said 25,000 gallons. They asked him how much he generally uses. He replied "As much as I need". Their answer to him was to start with 4 gallons and "see what that does". Then, a gal came from the back (who is slightly more knowledgeable than the 2 kids) and asked him how big was the pool, customer answered, the gal said "Well, you need to get that chlorine up to at least 30 so try 8 gallons of bleach." Honestly, I think they just pulled those numbers out of thin air and did no calculations to see how much he truly needed. I waited for the customer in the parking lot and gave him this website info!

And THAT's why I don't trust their numbers!

 

[duraleigh]

What a great testimonial for pool store testing. I really did use to defend the pool stores as I was (and am) a small business. Not any more They are just too wrong too often to get anything but negative reviews from me.

I know they're wrong - I can smell the chlorine!

Somehow, that is so poetically correct (no, not politically) ....I don't think anyone has ever used that before but that's about as good as it gets.

 

[jblizzle]

Although technically ... you really should not be able to "smell" the chlorine in the pool. I never smell anything ... and when I do, I know the CC is not 0.

 

[Jenischmeni]

The new SWG is up and running and working beautifully. It's keeping chlorine in the 3-5 range depending on whether it's set on 30% or 40%. (I really need a 35% setting!)

We added 1oz of pool magic to clear out the white cloud (from scrubbing off 7-years-worth-of-too-low-CH) and it cleared it right up. We're still scrubbing away but there's not enough residue left to cause any real cloudiness. The water sparkles and it is a gorgeous sight to see.

We're still struggling to get TA down but I'm patient. I had got it down to 125 from 150 until I had to add more water after back washing. (Back washed out the white stuff.) So, I'm back to 150.

I've adjusted my target levels to those recommended here.

Thanks for the advice and help. I'm not done and I promise never to go back to blind faith and using strips again!!! I'm still testing FC every single day (until I have a firm trust in the SWG and where it needs to be). I'm still testing TA every day too. I'll back those off to once a week after I trust that everything is on the right track. My goal is to get to only testing Chl and pH every day (using the blue Taylor kit that came with my TF-100) and the others once a week.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Of course we want pics!

How fast does the pH rise?

 

[Jenischmeni]

pH was at 7.8 on Sunday so I lowered to 7.4 with muratic acid. Last night it was back to 7.8 so I will repeat the process.

(I'll double check this before adding muratic acid since we had rain last night. I doubt it was enough to change things though.)

Since the SWG was just hooked up Saturday morning, it's not been long enough for me to report back how fast it's raising pH.

 

[Jenischmeni]

Oops! Forgot to add the picture. This picture is from Sunday. I could take one now but it wouldn't be very exciting since the solar cover is on it.