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Thread: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

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    Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    So the other day when I checked water it was FC at 7.0 and PH @ 7.2 and the water literally sparkled.

    It has stayed clear and algae free on plaster, but seems to have a bit of opacity to it. Are there particular values asssociated with sparkling. Pool store guessed without testing that it was TC, but never has been high.

    Planning a pool party early next month and if I could get down the sparkle bit, that would be sooo cool.
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Keep your test results in range as outlined in Pool School, test every day, feed the pool every day and you should maintain the sparkle.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    A well running filtering system is a huge plus in this aspect too. Your numbers could be great, but still have some fine dirt in in causing cloudy water.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Post a full set of trustworthy (not strips, not pool store) test results and we'll tell you if chemistry is a likely cause of the pool losing its luster.

    My pool loses some of the sparkle after I give it a brushing. It's like the dust on furniture - stuff clings to the walls. The water is absolutely perfect until I brush, or someone gets in and starts rubbing on the walls. Brush more often and it doesn't build up.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Resulting numbers are taylor numbers and not strips.

    Test daily? feed daily? Ugh, I was trying to set a pattern of 2-3 times a week, the fewer the better.
    It's easier to just poor in a gallon of shock than smaller amounts.

    How often should I run the polaris robot. I run it about once a week.

    again, water is clear and core values are good, but wondering what it takes for the next step
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    You never actually posted your numbers. Ideally, for new pool owners, you should be testing every day. After you get some experience, you can usually go to every other day or so. If you have a Liquidator or SWG or some such chemical feeder (not tablets) you can test less often. Just how often I am not sure.
    John
    7 year old ~13,500 gal 24' AGP with 1.5 hp Proline pump, 150 sqft Pleatco cartridge, filled with well water with pH of about 4.5.
    Wanda the Whale pool vacuum, home made heater, Taylor K-2006
    Cloudy Pool? 1) Order test kit. 2) Follow SLAM
    New to TFPC? Read Pool School a few times, then post questions. PoolMath will help with chemical additions.

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Ill check the numbers again tomorrow. FC was 7.0 and PH was 7.2, those were the only tests I ran
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Test daily? feed daily? Ugh, I was trying to set a pattern of 2-3 times a week, the fewer the better.
    It's easier to just poor in a gallon of shock than smaller amounts.

    How often should I run the polaris robot. I run it about once a week.
    Well, that won't get you much success towards your goal of sparkling water. It takes a bit more effort than you are currently willing to give but keep reading the successes on here and you might change your mind. Hope so.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    I am assuming chemical depletion is fairly constant and am looking for a solution that will reach goal with least amount of work as one of the agreements with taking over the pool care is that it be neither too costly nor too time consuming.

    Took FC and PH sample this am, the numbers definitely show the last treatment was 10 days ago.

    FC was 0.0
    PH was 7.8

    Added 1 gal acid and 2 gal of chlorine.

    Current numbers this pm:
    [I had posted similar numbers in other threads, but here is the current and best for this thread]
    FC 10.5 ;; yeah a little high, but also have a touch of algae, so not wasted chemicals
    CC 0.0 ;; good number
    PH 7.0 ;; little on low side
    Cal Hardness 590 ;; don't know how to interpret this one, I think anything between 500 and 800 is good
    Cy Acid 58 ish ;; lower than 60 but higher than 55, hard to determine what is meant by the point when the black dot disappears,
    is it when it's smokey, just barely seen, or when totally not seen


    I don't understand what makes the PH rise. My current theory is a chemical reaction between the plaster/concrete and the water is unbalancing the PH. So question is does plaster want a different PH than humans. Is it best with a PH of 7.8 or so whereas we like 7.2 to 7.4?

    I've just started to chart how much chemicals we need, but it appears that gallons of shock/chlorine is between 1 and 1.5/week and acid is about 1/2 per week. I presume this is about what others see.

    Am I missing any important chemical test or need correction in interpretation of the numbers?

    It's over 100 now so waiting til cools before swimming...
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notri4MeBikeSwim
    I don't understand what makes the PH rise. My current theory is a chemical reaction between the plaster/concrete and the water is unbalancing the PH. So question is does plaster want a different PH than humans. Is it best with a PH of 7.8 or so whereas we like 7.2 to 7.4?
    You posted many numbers, but not your Total Alkalinity (TA). Pools are intentionally over-carbonated to provide a pH buffer and to protect plaster surfaces by saturating the water with calcium carbonate. Because of the over-carbonation, carbon dioxide outgasses from the pool and that causes the pH to rise. There is no mystery here. The equilibrium amount of TA in the pool at a pH of 7.5 is only 8 ppm if there is no CYA in the water. This chart shows how much pool water is over-carbonated at various pH and TA levels (assuming 30 ppm CYA). Note that there is more outgassing at a lower pH so the pH will tend to rise more when it is lower and tend to slow down in its rise when it is higher.

    Why don't you measure and post your TA number. If it's higher than 70 or 80 ppm, then it may be too high and accounting for much of the pH rise. Also note that aeration increases the rate of outgassing so if you have any waterfalls, spillovers, fountains, etc. then those can contribute to a faster rising of pH.

    And yes, curing plaster causes the pH to rise, but that slows down significantly in the first month and usually has no noticeable effect after the first year.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Opps skipped a test result. On 5/18 TA was 125, today it was 100.

    No aeration, or water features, Pretty vanilla pool. I see the chart but i don't know how to interpret it. Understand about PH buffers, as do that in aquariums so the normal cycle does not turn the water acidic. I guess with pools it's the opposite.

    So do I need to do something to lower the TA?
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Taylor's manual says TA is perfect, as ideal range is 80-120

    Calcium hardness is a bit high, but below the max of 1000, do I need to drain out some water?

    Saturation index is -0.1 so overall balance seems ok, it should be better in a few days as ph rises and FC falls.

    But still would feel better with confirmation of TA interpretation and Calcium hardness numbers.

    FYI, on 5/18 hardness was 750, and now 590, don't know why it would drop, but it has. Not enough tests to know if real water difference or in differences in using the taylor kit
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Once the FC hits 0 and algae gets a start, it is a bit of work to get back to sparkling. (Kick me, I did just that, pool is in shock mode now)
    23,000 gallon in ground pool with rock waterfall and spillover spa, Aqualink control system, Polaris 380 cleaner, Purex Triton Clean&Clear Plus cartridge filter. Located in The Woodlands, Texas.

    Pool owner since Nov 2008, Trouble Free since April 2009. Happy to help when I can.

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    Smykowski's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    This is only my experience and opinion, I could be completely wrong....

    TFP pools have that sparkly look because they are absolutely, without a doubt, perfectly clean. If there is anything in the water, whether its oils from sweat/suntan oil, dust/dirt, or algae that's not quite visible yet, all of those things block/absorb the sunlight passing through. This explains why when you brush and kick stuff off the bottom, the pool "dulls" a little bit. However, when the pool is crystal clear, the sunlight passes through the water and bounces around in there without losing any of its intensity to debris, hence the sparkle.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notri4MeBikeSwim
    I am assuming chemical depletion is fairly constant and am looking for a solution that will reach goal with least amount of work as one of the agreements with taking over the pool care is that it be neither too costly nor too time consuming.

    Took FC and PH sample this am, the numbers definitely show the last treatment was 10 days ago.

    FC was 0.0
    PH was 7.8

    Added 1 gal acid and 2 gal of chlorine.

    Current numbers this pm:
    [I had posted similar numbers in other threads, but here is the current and best for this thread]
    FC 10.5 ;; yeah a little high, but also have a touch of algae, so not wasted chemicals
    CC 0.0 ;; good number
    PH 7.0 ;; little on low side
    Cal Hardness 590 ;; don't know how to interpret this one, I think anything between 500 and 800 is good
    Cy Acid 58 ish ;; lower than 60 but higher than 55, hard to determine what is meant by the point when the black dot disappears,
    is it when it's smokey, just barely seen, or when totally not seen


    ...
    You can't afford 5 minutes a day to devote to your pool? Really? How long does it take to sit pool side or at the kitchen table and run pH, and FAS test? How long does it take to add chlorine or muriatic acid?

    And then you waited 10 days to add anything? And now you have algae when if you would test daily and feed the pool at night before you go to bed, you wouldn't have to go through the shocking process and babysit the pool, testing it through the day and having to get up early in the morning before the sun hits it to test it again to see if you passed the 3 criteria of clear water, .5 or less of CC and a 1ppm or less loss over night. I'd of rather tested it once a day than go through that.

    Your 5 minutes a day just turned into a couple hours of work with a shock process, extra brushing, running the filter 24/7 to clear the algae, more chlorine and sweeping.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    " sit pool side or at the kitchen table and run pH, and FAS test? "
    What's the FAS test, I thought the most important were FC and PH and the others changed slowly and once a week monitoring of them would be good.

    "see if you passed the 3 criteria of clear water, .5 or less of CC and a 1ppm or less loss over night"
    Well that's what I'm looking for. You say 3 criteria, but i only see 2 listed. CC doesn't change much, didn't you mean to say FC and less than XXX change overnight?
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notri4MeBikeSwim
    " sit pool side or at the kitchen table and run pH, and FAS test? "
    What's the FAS test, I thought the most important were FC and PH and the others changed slowly and once a week monitoring of them would be good.

    "see if you passed the 3 criteria of clear water, .5 or less of CC and a 1ppm or less loss over night"
    Well that's what I'm looking for. You say 3 criteria, but i only see 2 listed. CC doesn't change much, didn't you mean to say FC and less than XXX change overnight?
    The third criteria is the water is clear. Shoulda been a colon between of and clear.

    FAS test is the FC/CC test. The powder one.
    [youtube:mt31c5r5]PHQG4tgQsFE[/youtube:mt31c5r5]
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    So FAS == FC + CC, and then little change overnight. this makes sense.

    Never saw a response: is calcium hardness something to be concerned about
    36K gal, gunite w/ plaster,[18W x 38L x 8 deep end] 300SF cartridge, 80-100 GPM filter, Sta-rite S7M120 and Polaris 9300 electric robot. Rooftop 6 panel Solar heater, Sacramento Valley, Climate Zone 8

  19. Back To Top    #19

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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Yes. Ideally it should be between 250-350, but if that is not possible try to keep the CSI as close to 0 as possible. CSI can be seen towards the bottom of poolcalculator.com
    EDIT: I think I might have misunderstood the question, as happens a lot with me. 590 is not a bad CH number if you keep an eye on CSI. Just keep it close to 0 and you will be fine.
    John
    7 year old ~13,500 gal 24' AGP with 1.5 hp Proline pump, 150 sqft Pleatco cartridge, filled with well water with pH of about 4.5.
    Wanda the Whale pool vacuum, home made heater, Taylor K-2006
    Cloudy Pool? 1) Order test kit. 2) Follow SLAM
    New to TFPC? Read Pool School a few times, then post questions. PoolMath will help with chemical additions.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Explain to me like a child- what makes sparkling water?

    Quote Originally Posted by Notri4MeBikeSwim
    So FAS == FC + CC, and then little change overnight. this makes sense.

    Never saw a response: is calcium hardness something to be concerned about
    590? Hah! I scoff at your puny numbers!

    High CH can lead to scaling. It will not make the pool cloudy if everything is in in range. I'm crowding 900 again and my water sparkles and I can call heads or tails on a coin dropped in the deep end.

    Worry about everything else for a couple weeks, until you have the art and science of balancing down. Then worry about CH.

    As an aside, there are directions for testing with high CH using only 10 ml, and each drop is 25. Who cares if you read 600 instead of 590? Close enough. Saves time and R-0012. Your CH may also not be that high...mine dropped 200 points just by testing suing the speedstir. Mixing is really critical on that test.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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