New Pool Owner

[malchior]

Another new pool owner thread and I'm pretty frustrated with my new pool at this point. So my backstory - we bought this home at the end of August last year from a family in financial distress. I had seen the pool mostly clear during the inspection. They blew the date on the inspection by weeks. They claimed it was due to a bad filter and they installed a totally new sand filter. When we inspected there was a tiny bit of clouding at the bottom. It appears that they basically got the pool clear for the inspection and never touched it again because upon closing we got the pool very green; as luck would have it it also was just before we were scheduled for a vacation. I tried to clear it but I couldn't keep the water level high enough to run the pump even overnight and we believed there to be a significant leak somewhere. We closed it up as is to tackle in the spring. At that point we learned the mesh cover was in a pretty bad way and had holes/many patches. Then Sandy came and removed a decent chunk of those patches as well as dumping who knows what into it.

Fast forward to 5/3. We opened up to diagnose the leak as early as possible. Come to find out that a pool enclosure that got destroyed during Sandy was concealing a major leak in the Hayward chlorinator. If the return setting was only to the stair returns the back pressure was spraying water out the top. We also had a suction side leak in the Superpump and in the pipe directly attached to the inlet of the Superpump. We fixed those issues all up.

I netted out about 3 or so garbage backs of leaves and crud from the bottom of the pool.

At the time the TF-100 results were:

CYA 20
pH 6.8
TA 40
CH 50
FC 0
CC 0

I adjusted TA up to 130 and pH to 7.2. I put some trichlor in the Chlorinator and dialed it up to max and added liquid bleach to get it up to shock of about 16 FC and measured until CYA rose to 40 then dialed the Chlorinator to Off. I have maintained that FC level or higher since. Between backwashing the filter, adding water and a few heavy rain storms I had to dial up the Chlorinator for a few days to get the CYA level back up to 40 range (30 - 40 as I get results fairly consistently in that range).

The pool went from green to light blue in about 3 or 4 days but has not significantly improved since then. I have been brushing every day and trying to net leaves. I don't really pull up much and when I brush I can see small pieces of leaves but they just settle back to wherever and it is not in really significant amounts. I can't see the bottom of the shallow end except the vague shape of the brush head. I can barely make out the blue of the liner bottom.

At sunset last night I read the following results:

FC 22.5
CC 1.5
CYA 30

and this morning at 5:30 read

FC 18
CC 2
CYA 30

I have periodically dropped in a Dolphin Dynamic including about a 24 hour total of repeat sessions over the last weekend and it didn't really come back with much in the way of debris. I'm dumping in about 2-3 gallons of 12.5% in every day and running the pump 24/7 but not seeing significant improvement so I'm wondering what the issue is.

I'm a wondering about poor circulation at this point. The only drains are from two skimmers. One near the stairs and one on the opposite corner of the pool (deep end). There is an eyeball return on the wall opposite the deep end skimmer and the main drain is plumbed as a return as well. There are two return jets opposite each other over the 2nd step from the bottom in the shallow end.

So I have a couple of questions after all that: 1) I should continue this routine of brushing every morning, maintaining shock correct? and 2) I have to go away and will be gone from Friday afternoon until Monday afternoon. Should I just dial up the Chlorinator, leave the pump running and deal with the CYA ramifications? I hate to think at a run rate of about $12 a day in electricity and bleach so far that I'm going to have to start over.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Are you running the pump 24/7 during this shock process? If you're not you should be. It will help the clearing a lot. Also if you're on'y testing and bringing it back to shock level once a day you're not testing and bring it back to shock level nearly enough.

 

[malchior]

Pump hasn't been off since 5/3 aside for backwashing. As I mentioned I am adding 2 to 3 x 128 Oz. 12.5% every morning and come back after work to levels above shock and I monitored it tightly both weekends. I had one dip below 16 to 13.5 a couple of days ago overnight but I added 4 x 128 Oz. 12.5% to compensate. I have a spreadsheet running since 5/7. On the weekdays I am testing at 5:30 and 5:30 PM (that is as early as I can feasibly get) and then 8:00 PM.

I guess it is possible I am doing these tests consistently wrong but I've done double checks using tap water as controls and think I am reading them right. I had a ton of doubt about my ability there so I have done tests an hour after a 2 x 128 Oz and get around a 7.5 FC increase that the pool calculator says I should expect from my pool size.

It just won't improve. We are beginning to joke there is a deer down there...but I don't feel anything down there and don't net anything solid enough to pull back up.

 

[BoDarville]

malchior:

Welcome to TFP

Looking at your numbers, your pool still needs to go through the shock process as evidenced by your overnight FC loss of 4.5 and CC of 2. The shock process requires a lot of "hands-on" attention, including testing several times per day to make sure FC does not drop below shock level and brushing/vacuuming (which you are currently doing). While the shock process is effective when done properly, it is not necessarily convenient.

The sticky part is what to do while you are away this extended weekend. The best solution is to have someone who can devote the time to properly managing the shock process while you are away. That way, your prior effort and chemical expense is not wasted. If that is not an option, then you need to go to Plan B. You are going to have to accept the fact that you will need to resume the shock process when you return, especially given your current overnight FC loss. So, if the pool will be left unattended while you are gone, I would spend the next day or two continuing the shock process to eradicate as much organic matter as possible. Run the pump 24/7 during this process while you are there. Then I would switch to damage control and focus on preventing things from getting any worse while you are gone. You could does up to shock FC level with bleach on Friday and then leave some trichlor pucks in the feeder while you are gone since your CYA has some "room". When you get back on Monday, I would run another set of tests and resume the shock process.

Admittedly, Plan B is not perfect. An alternative argument could be made to go into damage control mode now as opposed to pressing on for the next couple of days. In that case, you would save on chemicals now only to have to use more when you return and a certain amount of your your prior effort would be wasted, so your caught either way. No matter how you slice it, some effort and chemicals will be wasted if the shock process is started and then the pool goes unattended when it is still in need of shocking.

As far as whether to leave the pump on 24/7 while you are gone, the biggest risk of doing that is having the water level drop too low that the pump runs dry. If you top off your pool before you leave, that risk is probably low given that you will be gone for only 3 days. With my pool, that would be fine. With your pool, you are in the best position of anyone to gauge the risk of that. You could run the pump for several hours a day while you are gone instead of 24/7. If you believe the risk of the water level dropping that much in 3 days is high-enough, you could run a garden hose to the pool and leave the water on a trickle, assuming you have an overflow drain if the water were to get too high.

Bottom line is that there is no good answer for going through the shock process without having the time to devote to it.

 

[malchior]

Looking at your numbers, your pool still needs to go through the shock process as evidenced by your overnight FC loss of 4.5 and CC of 2. The shock process requires a lot of "hands-on" attention, including testing several times per day to make sure FC does not drop below shock level and brushing/vacuuming (which you are currently doing). While the shock process is effective when done properly, it is not necessarily convenient.

Right but I think it is safe to assume that if I come back to a level above shock every day...it didn't fluctuate down below it, right? I've been overshooting the shock level toward the mid-20s every day to deal with that.

Admittedly, Plan B is not perfect. An alternative argument could be made to go into damage control mode now as opposed to pressing on for the next couple of days. In that case, you would save on chemicals now only to have to use more when you return and a certain amount of your your prior effort would be wasted, so your caught either way. No matter how you slice it, some effort and chemicals will be wasted if the shock process is started and then the pool goes unattended when it is still in need of shocking.

That is what I was afraid of. This is a family obligation and unfortunately about anyone I could press into service is going to be out there as well. Oh well. This whole house has been a money pit due to the former owners complete lack of maintenance...guess I should expect no less from the pool.

 

[Smykowski]

You are getting good advice so far. I'll just add that sand takes the longest of the filter types to clear a swamp, so even though you're doing it right so far, plan on needing a little more patience during the clearing phase.

 

[malchior]

You are getting good advice so far. I'll just add that sand takes the longest of the filter types to clear a swamp, so even though you're doing it right so far, plan on needing a little more patience during the clearing phase.

Could you please tell that to my wife's family? Their pool friend "expert" keeps telling them bleach won't do anything and I need to use trichlor only. Though I'm glad the 12.5% I'm using says Liquid Shock on the side. That obviously means that will work better than the Clorox.

Also, is adding DE worth it now or should I wait until I pass the OCLT?

 

[BoDarville]

This whole house has been a money pit due to the former owners complete lack of maintenance...guess I should expect no less from the pool.

I can empathize with your frustration. But I can tell you this: Once you get that pool cleaned up, manage it going forward using the methods that we teach here. It will get better. Here's proof from my own before & after experience: http://www.troublefreepool.com/bbb-saved-me-over-1-400-in-the-first-full-year-t54033.html

Also, read and re-read the Pool School articles until the methods become second nature to you. I am on my second year of BBB and I still refer to those articles frequently.

 

[Butterfly]

How often are you backwashing? We recommend backwashing when the psi increases about 20 - 25% over the clean filter psi.

Have you opened the filter to take a look-see and preform a deep cleaning since you bought the house?

Once you are confident that the filter is working fine and you are maintaining the shock process, then there is just the waiting.

You could try adding a little DE to your sand filter, but make sure you stay around to monitor psi on your filter. Instructions in Pool School.

 

[malchior]

How often are you backwashing? We recommend backwashing when the psi increases about 20 - 25% over the clean filter psi.

I was doing the 10 PSI increase but switched over to 25% about 2 days ago.

Have you opened the filter to take a look-see and preform a deep cleaning since you bought the house?

I have not and probably won't. It was installed beginning of July and was barely used. In addition, I don't know if this is normal practice but the pipes are threaded directly into the outlets on the pump, multiport on filter etc and there are no unions downstream. I guess they threaded all the pipes and then joined them. We were trying to figure out how they did it but anyway I believe I'd have to cut the pipes and re-do the whole thing. I guess I'll have to do this eventually to make it easier to maintain but that can wait until next year (hopefully). I did some DE adds on Saturday. I'd add it and it'd rise a PSI and then it would come up over the next 3-4 hours the 8-10 PSI (this is before the switch to 25%) and then I'd backwash. Rinse and repeat (literally!) about 5 times over Saturday.

 

[Fancypants]

Have you ran your net down to the bottom of the deep end to see if there are any more leaves? I was maintaining a pool last season that went un-covered all winter, and I could not pass the OCLT until after I was sure that all leaves were removed, which was difficult, because I could not see the bottom of the swamp, eventhough it only took a day or two into the shock process to go from green to cloudy white.

Also, the pool had a painfully inadequate pump/cartridge filter, so I was constantly having to remove/clean the filter.

Should people who know better than I recommend he look into his filter? Eventhough it is sand, which will take a long time, maybe he has clumping or debris in the filter? I am a n00b with sand filters, per my current thread, just wondering.

*Edit*
(hah) the discussion went towards the filter while I was typing this)

 

[malchior]

Have you ran your net down to the bottom of the deep end to see if there are any more leaves? I was maintaining a pool last season that went un-covered all winter, and I could not pass the OCLT until after I was sure that all leaves were removed, which was difficult, because I could not see the bottom of the swamp, eventhough it only took a day or two into the shock process to go from green to cloudy white.

I haven't gotten a solid leaf in 3 or 4 days. When I brush I do see some small, small pieces of leaves (I assume leaves but more like 1/2" squares of "matter") coming up with the brush. I have been dropping in the robot in the hopes that it'd get enough of whatever is down there to get me to a point where I can see what is going on.

This whole thing wouldn't bug me if I was seeing even a little progress but that is not what is happening. Luckily today I am going to be able to sneak home at lunch and add another gallon if I need it and give it another brushing.

 

[malchior]

Just got back home - FC 18.5 CC 1 - Adding another Gallon of 12.5% bleach and brushing. I only did one gallon this morning to see the drop since I knew I could come back at lunch.

 

[joshs2000ss]

You said your last CYA test showed around 40, correct? When is the last time you added trichlor, and how much? I'm just wondering if your CYA level might be higher than you think and your FC levels aren't high enough to be actually "shocking" the pool.

 

[malchior]

You said your last CYA test showed around 40, correct? When is the last time you added trichlor, and how much? I'm just wondering if your CYA level might be higher than you think and your FC levels aren't high enough to be actually "shocking" the pool.

I measured CYA this morning and it was in the 30 - 40 range more towards 30. Last time I added trichlor was after my DE/backwash-athon on Saturday. It had fallen into the 20 - 30 range heavily towards 20. I'm "pretty sure" I'm doing that test right but it is very subjective...

 

[joshs2000ss]

Please wait for someone to correct me in case I'm telling you something that is incorrect or that would cause issues, but could you bump your FC up to 25 and hold it there for a day and see if that makes a difference?

Also, how long are you backwashing the filter when you do? How long are you rinsing after you backwash, before going back to filter?

I quickly glanced back though the thread but couldn't find the filter type. Is it sand?

Have you tried a suction side vacuum to waste to see if you get anything else out from bottom?

 

[malchior]

Please wait for someone to correct me in case I'm telling you something that is incorrect or that would cause issues, but could you bump your FC up to 25 and hold it there for a day and see if that makes a difference?

Also, how long are you backwashing the filter when you do? How long are you rinsing after you backwash, before going back to filter?

I quickly glanced back though the thread but couldn't find the filter type. Is it sand?

Have you tried a suction side vacuum to waste to see if you get anything else out from bottom?

I could try the higher FC. I'm weighing how much I throw at it since I have to leave in 3 days anyway. Maybe tomorrow I'll try slightly higher and see how it goes.

I backwash until the looking glass goes from cloudy to clear. I rinse for about 30 seconds after that (per the manual). It is a sand filter. And the pressure goes back to the same level (15 PSI) every time.

When I went home today at lunch it was the first time I've had direct overhead sun and the pool looks almost solid white with a blue-ish tinge. You can see clearly down about 2 inches and then it becomes murky. When I brushed I can see the shape of the tool head down to about a depth of 2 feet and then it is gone. It feels like pretty weak results considering how long I've been at it. I believe I did find a dead spot on the floor of the deep end. When I brush that one spot I get a minor cloud of those small leaf bits almost every time. I'll try to vacuum it tonight and give the robot another go.

 

[joshs2000ss]

I'm also trying to understand your drains. You say there are two skimmers and a floor drain but that the floor drain is plumbed as a return. I'm not sure I understand this. Is something that is done with some pool setups?

Also, does the pressure drop if you close off one of the skimmers? (that is if they are plumbed seperately)

 

[malchior]

I'm also trying to understand your drains. You say there are two skimmers and a floor drain but that the floor drain is plumbed as a return. I'm not sure I understand this. Is something that is done with some pool setups?

Also, does the pressure drop if you close off one of the skimmers? (that is if they are plumbed seperately)

The pool guy called it a gimmick - a solar return I believe. The theory is warmer water from the top is circulated out the bottom of the pool or some such. So the return side has a 2-way valve. The side return and that main drain return are on one outlet and the stairs are on the other leg. When set to the stairs only the back pressure would cause the chlorinator to overflow before the O-ring on it was replaced. Now the back pressure causes a drip out of the drain in the Chlorinator but I don't see a need to ever do it so I'm not going to sweat it. The drain plug has been worn down to the point where it is essentially there forever.

As to the skimmers -- I haven't played around to see if the pressure changes if I shut one down or not. They are plumbed into a 2-way as well -- one on each inlet.

 

[malchior]

I was just reading through the extended test kit instructions for CYA and saw that the sample should be at least 70 degrees. The pool has only topped out at 65 and is presently 61. My house is actually 65 right now so I'm heating it up to 70 and will let the sample come up at the same time. I'm hoping that sheds some light on what is going on.