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Thread: Plumbing question - returns

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    Plumbing question - returns

    Hi - I am under construction in DFW! It's a freeform gunite pool with spa, approximately 12,000 gal. I have a Jandy VSP (VS-FHP2.0) pump for the pool/spa, a separate pump for water features (sheer descent and 3 bubblers), and a booster pump for Polaris 280. The pool has 5 returns and 2 skimmers and the spa has 6 jets.

    My question is on the returns to the pool. There is one 2" pipe from the pad that splits into 2 1.5" pipes after about 5'. One of the 1.5" lines feeds 3 returns and the other 1.5" line feeds the other 2 returns. Is this adequate?

    Any feedback is appreciated!!
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    It depends on the layout of the plumbing and the length of each 1.5" pipe. Do you have a schematic that you can post?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Thanks for the quick reply!

    Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by schematic. I can draw the pool diagram and measure the runs. Would that help?
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Yes a drawing would help with the lengths and size of pipe indicated on the drawing.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns



    Ok - apologies for the quality of the drawing and it's clearly not to scale, but hopefully it provides the information you need. Thanks!
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Shouldn't these be looped? I would ask them to tie it all together so pressure is even throughout.
    35'x16' IG geometric with 8'x6' spa (16.5K gallons); White Diamond Pebblesheen w/Abalone Shells; Jandy 460 cartridge filter; Jandy 2HP E pump; Jandy 400K heater; Water Tech Blue Diamond Pro; TF-100 w/SpeedStir

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Loops don't help all that much were pipe length is long. They help more in spas where the loop around the spa is short. However, larger pipe certainly would help. I would go all 2" line and where it is TEED to the pool edge, then they can downsize to 1.5".
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Ok thanks, I appreciate your response! That makes sense.

    Would you say it is a problem the way it is done now, or just better to have the 2"? I'm not trying to question your advice, just trying to assess the magnitude of the issue.

    Thanks again!
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    It is both an issue of energy efficiency and the smaller pipe can mean unequal flow rates to the returns. The larger the pipe, the less influence the pipe has on flow rates so if you up size the pipe, the flow rate to each return is more likely to be the more or less the same. It isn't a huge issue but I think you would be happier with the results with the larger pipe as it may help to prevent dead spots in the pool circulation. Plus pipe is cheap compared to the pool so up sizing shouldn't cost much.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Great - thanks for the additional feedback! Have a great weekend!
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    BTW, I noticed you have a spa. Unfortunately, there are a lot of pool builders that really don't know how to design a proper spa. So if your would post some more details about the spa, I can take a look at that as well.

    Number of jets, type, nozzle size
    Pipe size
    Distance to the pad
    Jet Pump Model

    Here is a quick reference on spa design:

    The first step in designing a spa is to settle on the number of jets, size of jet and how strong you would like the jet to feel. Once this is determined, the following table can be used to determine the proper pipe size and the resultant operating point for the pump.




    The following example will help the reader understand how to use the sizing table:

    Jet Design: 6 x 3/8" Jets @ 15 GPM/Jet

    Total Flow Rate = 90 GPM
    Minimum Recommended Pipe Size = 2.5"
    ~ Head Loss = 55' (assumes 100' of pipe and typical fittings for a spa)
    Desired Pump Operating Point = 90 GPM @ 55' of head

    A few 1 HP full rated pumps and most 1.5 HP full rated pumps would work well for this setup.

    Also, note that for designs requiring more jets than a pipe or pump can support, multiple plumbing loops with multiple pumps can be used to achieve the necessary flow rates.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Thanks, I have 6 jets, I'm not sure what size, but probably 3/8" (will have to check). There is 2.5" pipe running to the spa loop, it's about 40', maybe 35', and the pump is the Jandy VSP (VS-FHP2.0). The PB said typically they do 5 jets, but with our setup 6 would be ok.

    We have a blower and I was thinking of adding venturi valves (I think that's what they are called - the spin valves on top of the coping) so that I could run the spa at night without the blower - but I guess this is not commonly done.
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    How long and what size is the air pipe? If you up size the air pipe and make it straight, you shouldn't need a blower. Just make sure he puts in a Hartford loop near the spa to prevent the air pipe from filling up with water.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Not sure about some of the terminology. By 'air pipe' do you mean the loop in the spa? The spa perimeter is about 25' and the air line is 1.5" and the water line is 2". I googled 'Hartford loop' and, yes, there is one. We added the blower as a backup, PB agreed we probably don't need it. The air line from the blower to the spa air loop is 2".

    So Venturi valves on coping are not needed?

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    The air line goes from the spa back to the equipment pad where the blower would be installed and I would up size that to 2.5" just to make sure.

    But your forum name changed?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Ok, that air line is about 35' and is currently 2", understood about 2.5". Sent you a PM.
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Quote Originally Posted by austin.sailor
    So Venturi valves on coping are not needed?
    Sorry forgot this. These are nice to have but are not needed. Some people like the bubbles and others don't so this would give each their own control. The valves would replace the air line.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    So if have a blower and the air loop, don't need the coping valves? Sorry, but trying to get it right - only one chance.
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Right, it is one or the other not both.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Plumbing question - returns

    Thanks. I thought you could have both and use one or other, interchangeably. I appreciate you clarifying!
    Under construction: 12k gal pool/spa, IG gunite, pebble sheen, jandy 2.0hp VSP, jandy 460 sq ft cartridge filter, UV sanitizer, Polaris 280 cleaner, Stenner pump bleach injection, TF-100

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