Energy Efficient Pump Recommendation

[joe317]

I've been reading about the energy efficient pumps now available. I'm thinking about replacing my current pump with one of these for the energy savings as well as the noise reduction. My current pump is a 2 HP Pentair Challenger high head high flow pump. The noise from it has always bothered me, especially when we have guests over. I typically turn it off then so conversations are easier.

The pump and my pool are almost 8 years old. My pool is 15' x 30' and holds about 16,000 gallons. It has 4 return lines and 2 floor drains as well as the skimmer. I'm using a Pentair cartridge filter system. The pump is connected to 1.5" PVC piping. I use a robot for cleaning my pool instead of vacuuming with the pool pump. My energy cost here in Texas is about 10 cents/kWh.

I'm looking at three Pentair pumps; 011018 Intelliflo VS ($863), 011012 Intelliflo VF ($1,200), and the 022005 Intelliflo XF ($1,120).

Which pump would you recommend for my set-up and why?

What benefit do I get for the additional $250 - $350 if I get the 022005 or 011012 instead of the 011018?

Will I be able to install any of these pumps as a direct replacement? I.E. do I need anything else to control any of these pumps? As far as I can tell, I can just unwire and disconnect my current pump and use the same wiring and piping for the new pump.

Thanks.

 

[BoDarville]

My energy cost here in Texas is about 10 cents/kWh.

Have you considered a 2-speed pump? Will cost you considerably less than a VS pump and will likely be more reliable since it is a simpler design. Plus at $0.10 per kWh, you will see payback on a 2-speed much sooner.

 

[joe317]

No I haven't considered a 2 speed pump because the cost didn't seem that much lower. I looked at the Pentair 011523 which also costs $850. For that price I figured it's even better to go with one of the Intelliflo pumps.

My main reason to want to replace my pump is to reduce the sound. I want a pump that is much quieter than my current pump. Secondary will be the cost savings.

What 2 speed pump would you recommend to work best with my system?

How about the Intelliflo models?

Thanks.

 

[karmabiker]

Joe,
I was in very much the same boat and decided on a motor only replacement with the 2Green motor based on the capital and operational costs.

Check out the thread here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/challenger-2hp-ao-b855-single-upgrade-to-2green-t58635.html

If the pump side of your equation works well and the noisy expensive motor is the issue ....

What pump do you currently have? EDIT - Just saw this - 2 HP Pentair Challenger high head high flow pump - I should have more than 1 cup of coffee before responding, that is EXACTLY the same pump I have.

Take a look at the 2Green B2984. It is a direct replacement and costs (within a margin of error) the same to run as a VS pump with a capital outlay of $330.

What kind of controls do you have now? That will determine if you need additional controls (manual switches, old school dials, Auotmation system, etc.) for any of the pumps you are asking about or the 2 speed. FOr me the 2 speed only required 1 additional wire to the pump. VS would have required at least 2 for the controls.

 

[karmabiker]

I think Durk Sums it up best here:

Based on the research I did when I bought a B2982 for my WhisperFlo, Pentair does not put the high efficiency permanent magnet motors into their 2-speed pumps. I suspect Hayward does the same thing. This represents a big hunk of the claimed ROI for the variable speed motors as compared to the 2-speed induction motors, not the high-efficiency B29XX 2-speed permanent magnet motors sold only as after-market replacements/upgrades..

They also compare the VS cost vs. 2-speed pump for THE SAME RUN-TIME, without adjusting for the lower flow rate on the VS--at least as far as I can tell. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the payback of a VS vs, a B29xx in a true $/gal moved analysis would not justify the upfront cost. I find running low-speed all the time except for B'wash and vacuum is fine, so a B2982 with an SPDT installed right into the side of the timer box (with a weather 'condom') was the smart thing to do for my setup.

I think our members should be made aware that by upgrading an existing single-speed pump with a B29xx motor, you create a more efficient 2-speed pump than any available on the market for much less than the price of a new pump.

 

[joe317]

Joe,
I was in very much the same boat and decided on a motor only replacement with the 2Green motor based on the capital and operational costs.

Check out the thread here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/challenger-2hp-ao-b855-single-upgrade-to-2green-t58635.html

If the pump side of your equation works well and the noisy expensive motor is the issue ....

What pump do you currently have? EDIT - Just saw this - 2 HP Pentair Challenger high head high flow pump - I should have more than 1 cup of coffee before responding, that is EXACTLY the same pump I have.

Take a look at the 2Green B2984. It is a direct replacement and costs (within a margin of error) the same to run as a VS pump with a capital outlay of $330.

What kind of controls do you have now? That will determine if you need additional controls (manual switches, old school dials, Auotmation system, etc.) for any of the pumps you are asking about or the 2 speed. FOr me the 2 speed only required 1 additional wire to the pump. VS would have required at least 2 for the controls.

Thanks for the information. Definitely interesting that this motor will generate so much savings.

Did you end up going with the B2984? How much quieter is it? I used a decibel meter on my iPhone and measured 84 dB right at the motor. About 10' away where my sitting area is located I measured 64 dB. Both readings are with the pump running.

Was this motor a direct replacement for the current motor? Any modifications required to make it fit?

Where did you find this motor for only $330? The best I found doing a quick check was $430.

My current controls are just using a standard Intermatic dial control that turns the pool pump on and off. Can you explain why I would need an additional wire for the B2984? And why would I need two additional wires for any of the VS Pumps? My plan was to just connect the current pump motor wiring to the new motor. I'd probably take the on/off toggles out of the Intermatic so it's powered all the time and then use the controls on the new motor. Since I don't use the pump for vacuuming, I'd run it at low speed all the time.

I appreciate the help answering all my questions.

Thanks.

 

[karmabiker]

Joe,
the B2984 is the bare motor Locke Well and Pump - $338

The T version B2984T has the controls integrated (exact same pump) At INYO for $430

I am in the process of getting mine upgraded, happy to let you know when I have real numbers on noise level on low. If you are in the Houston area you can Swing by and check it out.

Regardign the controls - If you go with the T version of the motor all of the controls will be on the motor - no need to change controls.

If you go with a bare motor you need need an extra wire (Load wire) to control High vs Low on a 2 speed and an appropriate switch to handle it (or a 3 way switch as outlined in the post above ... but its still an extra wire to the motor). The VS motors have continuous supplied voltage so there would not be any change in the load wires - you would however need to add a pair of wires between the controls and the the motor to control the pump - you also need to be sure the controls are compatible with the motor.

Easy ($430) == motor with integrated timer (B2984T or the V version of the same thing) should plug right in (get a gasket kit for the pump as well).

Moderate ($600)== 2 Speed (B2984) or VS and external timer (I'm installing a PE653RC intermatic today for this purpose ... added to the bling factor - $300 delivered on amazon) - My total bill this route is Just under $600 and I get a wireless remote and expandability later to do valve switching and ZWave integration with home automation controls!

Moderate - Hard but cheaper ($400) == 2 Speed motor (B2984) and a 3 way switch on 1 leg to handle the high / low control

Hopefully this is clear as mud...

 

[joe317]

This does help. I'll definitely be interested in the sound reduction. I just got done changing all the seals on my pump so I should be good if I go with the motor change. I'd love to swing by to see it, but I'm way out in west Texas. Thanks.

 

[Durk]

On the bare motor, the extra wire is to allow switching between high and low from a remote switch or a timer with speed control capability. With a cartridge filter, I guess you really have no need for the high speed. In that case, you could use your existing wiring and timer with no problem and stick to low speed. You can always add the switch and wire later if you change your mind about high speed.

I have a smaller motor and a quieter pump, but the low-speed setting is extremely quiet. If a breeze is blowing, I have to look at the trap cover to be sure it's running. I would bet that you will barely hear or be unable to hear your existing pump running on low speed from poolside.

 

[JasonLion]

There are basically three classes of motors available, regular motors which are in about half of the single speed pumps sold and nearly all of the dual speed pumps, high efficiency motors which save about 10% over a regular motor and which are used in about half of the single speed motors, and permanent magnet variable speed motors which save about 18-20% over a regular motor (at the same speed).

Meanwhile, running a dual speed motor at half speed saves 50% of the electrical usage compared to running at high speed. A variable speed motor can run even slower, saving around 78% of the electrical usage of running on full speed. All of this assumes that the pump run time is adjusted so that all examples move the same total amount of water.

To put this into more concrete terms, imagine we have several possible pumps all being used on a single pool and all setup to move the same total amount of water. Further, imagine that a regular single speed pump with a regular motor uses $100/month of electricity on this particular pool, given high electric rates ($0.40/kwh). The approximate costs/month for the various kinds of pumps breaks down about as follows:
$100 - regular single speed
$90 - high efficiency single speed
$81 - permanent magnet variable speed run at a speed that moves the same GPM as the regular single speed
$50 - dual speed run on low
$22 - variable speed run around 1000 RPM

Now let's look at the initial investment for the various pumps using a high volume Internet seller pricing:
$300 - Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP standard efficiency
$400 - Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP high efficiency
$400 - Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP Dual Speed
$870 - Pentair IntelliFlo VS

Now let's look at payback time, the number of months you need to run the pump before you pay back the standard investment, assuming in each case that the base line choice is the standard efficiency single speed:
10 months - high efficiency single speed
30 months - permanent magnet motor run at the same GPM as the single speed
2 months - dual speed pump run on low
7 months - variable speed pump run around 1000 RPM

I have made a number of assumptions, not all of which will be true for your pool. Most of them are true for most people most of the time. However, electric rates vary rather dramatically, and I have assumed high electric rates. Electric rates are by far the factor that most effects the decision. My example assumes a fairly high electric rate (around $0.40/kwh). Lower electric rates will pay back more slowly, higher electric rates will pay back more quickly.

Let's look at the payback time again, this time assuming a much lower ($0.10/kwh) electric rate:
40 months - high efficiency single speed
120 months - permanent magnet motor run at the same GPM as the single speed
8 months - dual speed pump run on low
29 months - variable speed pump run around 1000 RPM

And one final set of numbers, total cost over 5 years, assuming a 9 month pool season, at $0.40/kwh:
$6,300 - standard efficiency single speed
$5,800 - high efficiency single speed
$5,730 - variable speed run at a speed to match the GPM of the standard single speed
$3,400 - dual speed run on low
$2,190 - variable speed run around 1000 RPM
and the last two again at $0.10/kwh
$1,150 - dual speed on low with low electric rates
$1,200 - variable speed around 1000 PRM with low electric rates

 

[joe317]

This is very helpful Jason. This is the type of comparison I've been looking for. The dual speed run on low is a great option with the quickest payback.

I do have a question about you assumptions for the pumps. Is there a reason you used a 1 HP pump in the comparison? The reason I ask is because my current pump is a 2 HP.

Also for the dual speed pump your comparison assumes a complete pump replacement versus only a motor replacement that others have talked about. Did you just do that for simplicity? Or are you recommending to change the entire pump (motor and wet end)?

Thanks.

 

[D_Nyholm]

It seems all these assumptions are based off of a 12 month swim season? Mine is only about 4 months here and we also have a $400 rebate toward vs pumps, so I would assume my payback would be about 2 years considering our electric rates are .22/kWh?

 

[JasonLion]

To do a comparison like this one you need to make a number of assumptions, otherwise you end up with a gigantic table of numbers that no one can understand. I assumed a 1 HP motor, because for most pools we recommend using a dual speed 1 HP. Likewise, I assumed the pool was open 9 months out of the year for the five year totals. Payback times listed in months are based on months when the pool is actually open.

Using a larger motor will generally increase your electrical usage, and proportionately increase savings. Running for a shorter number of months each year will lengthen the total payback times. Take the payback time I gave in months and divide by the length of your pool season to get years. Electric rates around $0.20/kwh are right around the point where we start recommending using a variable speed pump. Replacing only the motor reduces the capital expenditure, without changing the savings, so shortens the payback time.

 

[karmabiker]

Also for the dual speed pump your comparison assumes a complete pump replacement versus only a motor replacement that others have talked about. Did you just do that for simplicity? Or are you recommending to change the entire pump (motor and wet end)?

Joe - I suspect simplicity form an example standpoint.

Do keep in mind that the only way to get the super efficient 2speed is to do a motor only replacement. They aren't offered as complete pump units (to the best of my knowledge).

On another note - what part of west Texas are you in (I LOVE Terlingua / Study Butte - try to make it down there at least once a year)?

Chris

 

[karmabiker]

the B2984 is the bare motor Locke Well and Pump - $338

The T version B2984T has the controls integrated (exact same pump) At INYO for $430

To follow up on this avoid Locke Well and Pump - I had a bad experience getting my stenner from them (paid for 3 day shipping via UPS got FedEX ground and a late shipment ... and they forgot the rain roof ... and they were horrible at getting back to me.)

The guys at inyo have been OK - they say they price match but I haven't heard back after 2 days. May try pool supply world ... but they dont have the B2984 (without the T on their site).

 

[Rtstephn]

Jason, that is exactly what I was looking for, thx so much. Here in GA I pay around 8 cents per kWh. I guess I shouldn't complain that no utility here offers rebates for the vs pumps.

I have an old AO Smith Century Centurian (still running) that costs me around $80+ a month to run. I'm trying to justify a vs pump. Since my pool pump does only filtering, I would love to run it at 1000 RPM or less and save that money.

After reading the excellent post from Jason, it's harder to justify the upfront money for a vs pump with the extended payback time. But I would love a quiet, cheap to operate pump!

 

[JasonLion]

Rtstephn, a dual speed should do everything you are asking for and pay back the additional costs in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[jblizzle]

Fyi. On my low speed, it is very difficult to even hear the pump running a few feet away.

 

[karmabiker]

And another follow up. Pool supply world is the cheapest with the TFP discount and they have been great from a customer service standpoint.

 

[joe317]

Well I'm ready to buy my new motor. I plan on getting the B2984T. As I did some more research, however, I came up with more questions.

I always thought my motor was 2 HP. Below is a picture of the faceplate that says 2 HP on top.

[attachment=1:1j91tmg4]motor faceplate2.jpg[/attachment:1j91tmg4]

It also has this plate on the top of the motor that says 227T. Not sure if this is important.

[attachment=0:1j91tmg4]motor number2.jpg[/attachment:1j91tmg4]

This faceplate also calls out that the part number for the motor is 7-168454-25. When I search for this motor I come up with an AO Smith motor that is 1.5 HP (model B858). It also states customer part number as 35-5342.

Inyo Pools website lists this motor. In their description it states the HP as 1.5 and then further in the description it states the total HP is 2.25.

http://www.inyopools.com/Products/00200017039448.htm

So now I'm confused. Is my motor really a 1.5HP motor or is it a 2HP? Should I be purchasing a 2 HP replacement motor (B2984T) or a 1.5 HP replacement (B2983T)?

Thanks.