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Thread: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above pool

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    Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above pool

    Currently have a 1.5HP Hayward super pump that died. I suspect this pump was a quick cheap fix for the previous owner prior to sell. (Pad is 2" plumbing but reduced at pump to 1.5" on each side).

    Existing flow seems fine to me but I may not know any better.

    Odd thing to note is my equipment pad is ~6' above the pool so priming takes a bit of finesse but not too big of a deal although it may play into the overall sizing.

    Time to upgrade with a couple goals in mind.
    1. Want 2 speed for energy savings (current pump used to run 24/7 at cost of approx $150/mon). I'm also going to install a timer with this new pump so overall savings should be significant.
    2. Want it quiet (current pump has been annoying, the pump sits right outside of the master bedroom window.)

    Trying to make a cross reference in performance it looks like I could move to a WhisperFlo 011486 WFDS-4 which is a 1HP Dual speed. So in marketing speak a "downsizing" of pumps but looking at the SFHP appears to be an actual slight up sizing at high speed setting.

    I do plan to fix the pad plumbing at install of whatever. The less noise potential of a VS pump is attractive but I can't see the payback for my short 3-4 month season. The 2 speed seems best. Looking for a sanity check on sizing and if this is a good choice of pump.

    Thanks!
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Some other info about the pool

    Pool is a best guess of ~15000Gal - its an odd oasis shape.. and the deep end bottom ~5.5' is shaped like a bowl so it's hard to do a solid calc.

    1.5" skimmer
    1.5" main drain
    both join to a diverter valve at the pump (I know now that the pump input is barely long enough if at all)
    1.5" returns x 4

    There is a slide tapped in as well as a small scupper waterfall thing. Oddest thing about the plumbing is a valve on the pool deck appears to shut off 2 of the 4 return lines increasing the flow to the 2 stair returns i.e. hot tubish.. and also increasing flow to the slide.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    The Hayward Super Pump line is similar to the Pentair Superflo line ... designed for smaller plumbing.
    The Pentair Whisperflo line is similar to the Hayward Super II Pump line ... these are larger pumps than the above and will use more power.

    If you were happy with the Super Pump, then there are 2-speed motors that you could put on the existing wet end or you could look at the Superflo that should work as well.

    I would hesitate to recommend a smaller pump as I am not sure how much it would suffer with the difficult priming.

    They are all VERY quiet on low speed.

    One thing to consider first though is to confirm if your current motor is 115V or 230V.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    It's 230V.

    All the plumbing on the pad is 2" filter, heater, etc.. until it splits off to the return lines. As well the skimmer/drain valve is all 2" but instantly reduces back to 1.5" to match the pump.

    In my small head it would make sense to have multiple small lines feeding a single larger pipe.. but I'm not going to pretend to play hydraulic engineer. In my case it looks odd to go 2" to 1.5 for the pump then back to 2. i.e. it looks like a quick bandaid, at the cheapest price, to get something working by the previous owner.

    Just looking at the flow charts of the 2 different brands (WARNING marketing dept alert). The pentair 1HP looks to outperform the super pump by a good amount.

    Since I have to spend some money here I'm not afraid to pay a bit more to do it right. Are you saying that there won't be any significant advantage to going into the higher end pump class? I'm approaching this as the super pump is the cheapest thing that could even be on there.

    Along my current thought path I could easily go with the whisperflo 1.5HP as the cost difference is small. That was my original plan.. Then I looked closer at the flo graphs and SFHP.. tied that into the trend of smaller pumps are usually better than larger.. and it looked like the 1HP was a better match. Again that is trusting the marketing dept of both companies though... history has told me that is a horrible idea. And I generally agree that I'd rather error on the safe side considering the high equipment location.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    The more plumbing that is 2" the better, but it is not uncommon to have reducers. Many pads may have originally been 1.5" like all your underground plumbing and then it was increase on the pad to reduce the headloss through all the turns and help the flow rate.

    Since you have 2 suction lines that are 1.5", you could likely move more water with a larger pump, but the question is ... why do you need to move more water? The more water you move the electricity you burn.

    The Superflo uses unions to attach the plumbing and can use 1.5" or 2" pipe to attach to the union. My pool had a single 1.5" pipe from the skimmer, but I added a second 1.5" suction line from the wall that go through a 3-way valve and then ran 2" pipe from the valve to the motor. And then used all 2" pipe on the pad into the 4 different 1.5" lines I have running back to the pool.

    Maybe Mark will swing by here and can comment on how much the height of the equipment should enter into the selection process.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboniman
    Just looking at the flow charts of the 2 different brands (WARNING marketing dept alert). The pentair 1HP looks to outperform the super pump by a good amount.
    That depends on what you mean by outperform. The Superflo will produce higher flow rates on the same plumbing than the Superpump but that comes at a cost of more energy. So in terms of energy factor (gallons pumped per watt-hr consumed), the Superpump actually outperforms the Superflo by about 5%.


    Quote Originally Posted by zamboniman
    Since I have to spend some money here I'm not afraid to pay a bit more to do it right. Are you saying that there won't be any significant advantage to going into the higher end pump class? I'm approaching this as the super pump is the cheapest thing that could even be on there.
    The higher end pumps will deliver more flow rate but that always comes at a higher energy cost and usually a much higher cost. The problem is there is not a higher end pump that has a lower head curve to match the one you have now and available in a two speed option. So you are better off with a SuperPump.


    Quote Originally Posted by zamboniman
    Along my current thought path I could easily go with the whisperflo 1.5HP as the cost difference is small. That was my original plan.. Then I looked closer at the flo graphs and SFHP.. tied that into the trend of smaller pumps are usually better than larger.. and it looked like the 1HP was a better match. Again that is trusting the marketing dept of both companies though... history has told me that is a horrible idea. And I generally agree that I'd rather error on the safe side considering the high equipment location.
    Horrible because of what? If it is priming, then I would agree. Smaller pumps will have more trouble priming with higher elevations than larger pumps. So if you have a pump that works, don't mess with it.

    BTW, why are you changing pumps? If it is to save energy, you could just change the motor of your current pump to a two speed. You know it will prime on full speed and you will save energy on low speed.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    another nugget of info.
    The pump had a slow leak for awhile. Eventually took out the bearing mid last season. I rebuilt it changed seal and bearings. No leak ran great for rest of summer. Totally seized at startup this summer.. either way pump housitis well corroded from original leak. I'm not keen on keeping the wet head at this point after messing with it twice now in just a few months of use its time to rip n replace.. and gives excuse to improve the plumbing I inherited. I wonder if pump has to work too hard causing excessive heat and failure? No need to move more water just want quiet less energy use and my pool clean.

    I was considering the higher end whisper flo purely on potential less noise.. perhaps that's a false assumption.

    Also I'm not convinced the existing super pump is the right pump for the pool so I'm only using that as a starting point. Looking at the plumbing.. knowing what I know of the previous owner and knowing he replaced it at one point all indicate this was most likely a quick patch job.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    The horrible idea I speak of is trusting spec sheets and their tendency to stretch truth
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboniman
    I wonder if pump has to work too hard causing excessive heat and failure?
    Actually, pump motors run hotter on lower head loss plumbing. So higher restrictive plumbing is actually less stressful on a pump motor.


    The horrible idea I speak of is trusting spec sheets and their tendency to stretch truth
    Which specs are you referring to? Head curves are generally fairly accurate. Motor labels are just maximum ratings for the motors and really have no bearing on the pump performance since that is dictated by the head curve.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    The difficult prime part is mainly due to needing a bit more water than what naturally sits in the basket without draining back down the feed. Basically I have to close the valve allowing the pipe and basket to fill all the way .then open the valve and quickly start the pump.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    That sounds like a normal priming process for a pump well above a pool. As long as it does not lose prime when the pump turns off due to a leak somewhere.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    I agree, most pumps have problems with high priming levels and require a valve to fill the basket so that is not uncommon.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    So the consensus is I should stick with a cheaper line pump either super pump or super flo whatever brand one likes. And also switch to the 2 speed flavor.

    Let me ask a simple question.. is the whisperflo quieter than the superflo? Like for like speed settings
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    No idea. Not sure who would have both to compare the sound levels.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    I see what Mark is saying regarding Head curves.. it wasn't as obvious comparing the different models / series / manuf just looking at spec tables. Once I started plotting them in excel it's enlightening. If I was **** bent on using a whisperflo model the closest match to what I have is the smallest single speed models (almost the exact same curve for the 1.5 superpump to 0.5 full rated whisper. Once you jump to the 2 speed ones the smallest option move significantly more water than where I'm at today. Another thing if I'm to believe the head curves is the performance spec to go by therefore the rated SFHP can't be used to directly compare pumps across brands. i.e. My current super pump would be a 1.5 SFHP and the comparable smallest whisper flow charts out at .95.

    All that said what got me here is that I automatically assumed a "nicer" pump would be of a quieter variety. I've been around other pools where the pumps were almost silent within a few feet. Even with new bearings I could hear mine humming along easily from a far. I was of the mindset that if I ever needed to replace our pump I'd get one of those nice "quiet" ones. Then my research started and I realized I had what is basically the cheapest unit on the market for the size on my pool... obviously that's a loud piece of junk.

    So if you were shopping for a pool pump purely on performance.. it would be pretty easy. Unless there is some other less obvious qualities.. like being half as loud. or maybe the physical size of a pump for a given performance.

    Ultimately, I now understand that pushing more water through my existing plumbing probably isn't the answer. The flow from the existing superpump is nothing spectacular but has served my pool fine for the last 2 years I've owned it. Curiously, the small whisperflo specs out at 4.5amps, but the dual speed superflo with the same head performance is 6amps. That would imply to go with the small whisperflo pump if you were planning to go single speed.

    I've come full circle at this point not sure what to really do.
    1. I need a new pump
    2. I'd like to save money on electricity
    3. I'd like it to be quieter
    4. Needs to get the job done.

    That said all signs point to getting something that has the same curve as existing with a slower speed as you've all suggested. Now can I get that in package that won't keep me up at night (literally)?

    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Most pumps at lower speeds are very quiet. Low speed is what most 2-speed/VS pump owners use most of the time. I would probably just go with a 2-speed version of your current pump if you do not want to just replace the motor.

    Not that my pump would be appropriate for your pool, but I can barely hear it on low.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    If I were to simply compare superpump dual speed equivalent to what I have 1.5HP .. and if I understand the specifications correctly it looks like the equivalent performance superflo (assuming changing brands) would actually be their 1HP dual speed.

    Sanity check... the superpump sp2610x152s (1.5HP) = superflow 340042 SF-N2-1A (1HP) almost like one is uprated and other is full rated?

    If I end up going superflow I want to make sure I don't get the wrong equivalent.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Those two pump curves look very similar to me, so I would think you would be fine with either.

    It seems like going down one size might make sense for your pool if you weren't concerned about the two jets at the step having hard flow. I do not know how that would impact your priming at your 6' higher than pool level pump location. Maybe mas or someone else would know?

    What size filter do you have?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Quote Originally Posted by zamboniman
    Sanity check... the superpump sp2610x152s (1.5HP) = superflow 340042 SF-N2-1A (1HP) almost like one is uprated and other is full rated?
    They are both classified as up rated pumps. However, as you can tell, the head curve performance is about the same but the motor labels are not. This is why using motor labels to compare pumps will often lead to the wrong conclusion.

    The Superflo SF-N2-1A should be a good replacement for the Superpump and priming should work equally well. Downsizing it further could be a risk that I wouldn't take. Besides, the efficiency doesn't improve much when you go smaller than these size pumps.

    Also, if you would like some suggestions on plumbing changes to make priming easier, post a picture of your pad equipment.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump replacement - Time to improve - Pump high above poo

    Filter is pent air tagelus 60 (325#). So I guess that says I should be 60gpm or less actual flow. . I'll post plumbing picture in a little while.
    ~15k gal oasis shape, IG vinyl, 2 speed superflow 1HP ~6' above pool level, pentair TA60D 60GPM/325# sand, built 2004, intermatic 1353 and stenner chlorine injection pump, dolphin robot, and a filthy light niche

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