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Thread: Green water - moved topic from introductions

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    Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Hi Guys/Gals,

    I posted some of the information on my pool over in introductions, but I figured that wasn't the right place to continue the discussion, as it's getting hairy, so I figured I'd restart it here.

    Background on pool is in my sig (per forum directions). However, I just found out that the pool is one of those "pristine blue" installations, and I'm not keen on having my 4 year old daughter (or anyone in my family) potentially exposed to bacteria or virii, so I want to convert it to BBB.

    In any event, while I am waiting on my Taylor 2006 kit, I went down to Walmart and got a HTH 6-way test kit.

    For some reason, the TA test is already red when I add the drops, it's never green, so I have no green->red conversion with the titrate added.

    Weather: 67 degrees, Sunny - not sure what the temp of the poolwater is though and don't have a way to test it (no thermometer)

    Here's the best numbers I can come up with so far (remember, this is the HTH 6-way test kit for now):

    pH: <= 6.8 - the vial was yellow, didn't even approach the higher numbers after adding 5 drops of phenol red
    FC: <= .5 ppm (the water was clear after adding the 5 drops of OTO)
    TA: 0 ppm (the water was immediately red after adding the indicator solution, therefore, no titrate was added for 0 ppm)
    CH: 150 ppm (added 15 drops of titrate to the 25ml vial after adding 5 drops of indicator - of course stirring and looking between drops)
    CYA: < 30 ppm (utilized the entire "squirtbottle" of pool water and CYA solution - 14ml total, 7ml of water, 7ml of solution) - the vial was overflowing due to surface tension, so I have no way of knowing what the exact number was below 30ml - that was the last graduation on the vial)

    So, (please correct me if I'm misinterpreting), it seems that:
    pH is low by about oh, .6
    FC is low by around 2.7 or so
    TA is non-existent
    CH is about in the middle of the range
    CYA is low (but by an unknown value)

    Additionally, from what I've read, since this is a pristine blue pool, and I don't have any way to test copper, I have no idea what the concentration of copper is currently.

    So, where do I go from here? It seems first step is to bring up the pH yes? Based on numbers in the pool calculator (and a gallon size of 17,130) it's saying I should add:

    -160 oz of 6% bleach to bring FC from .5 to 5
    -26 oz of borax to bring pH from 6.8 to 7.6
    -362 oz of baking soda to bring TA up, but this will also increase pH it says, so should I just do the baking soda first, and leave out the borax until that's incorporated?
    -I don't need to add any CaCl since CH seems to be dandy
    -91 oz of stabilzer (or a whole bunch more of liquid stabilizer) to bring CYA from some unknown low number to 40 ppm.

    I should lastly add that:
    -the pool filter is currently running (10psi - no idea what nominal is for this pool, but I imagine it's ok here until I see a rise)
    -the wife and I have added chemicals that were existing yesterday based on bad knowledge (i.e. before I found this site)
    -the pool has algae in it from my previous stupidity (didn't clean the pool cover in my haste)
    -the pool has detritus in it (leaves, bugs, etc.) again from my stupidity with the cover, and I don't currently have a way to get the scum out, since all the pool cleaning stuff is broken (but new stuff is on the way, should be here mid-weekish).

    Does this all seem correct to you wizards of pool care?

    Thanks!
    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Fix TA with Baking Soda, let it mix well, retest pH and TA and fix them. Why? Because chlorine works better in the right pH zone and acidic water is tough on pumps and heaters. The CYA can be added at any time in there, hanging in a sock in front of a return so you don't lose all the expensive granules when you backwash. Remove as much debris as you can manually as it saves on bleach. You can do this while the baking soda is mixing or any time after that. Then jack the FC up to shock level for your calculated CYA level and keep it there until the pool is clear.

    You can fine tune the rest of it when the water is clear.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Thanks for the information - is there anything I need to be concerned about with the pristine blue **** in the water (e.g. unknown copper levels and such)? I note that, when we took the cover off, there was no copper staining going on in the water / liner and so forth (from what we could tell, and granted, it wasn't that much of a look before the pool got green.

    Also, any suggestions on "wal-mart available" stabilizers? I'm new to all this, so I have no idea if there's a "good" or "bad" brand, etc.

    I guess I've gotta go find me a whole ton of baking soda then Should I dilute the baking soda in a bucket prior to introduction in the pool, or can I just broadcast the bag / box contents on the pool side opposite of the return / skimmer?

    Thanks again for all your folks' help, this place is a veritable treasure of pool information - so glad I found it.

    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Quote Originally Posted by mmcgirr
    Thanks for the information - is there anything I need to be concerned about with the pristine blue **** in the water (e.g. unknown copper levels and such)? I note that, when we took the cover off, there was no copper staining going on in the water / liner and so forth (from what we could tell, and granted, it wasn't that much of a look before the pool got green.

    Also, any suggestions on "wal-mart available" stabilizers? I'm new to all this, so I have no idea if there's a "good" or "bad" brand, etc.

    I guess I've gotta go find me a whole ton of baking soda then Should I dilute the baking soda in a bucket prior to introduction in the pool, or can I just broadcast the bag / box contents on the pool side opposite of the return / skimmer?

    Thanks again for all your folks' help, this place is a veritable treasure of pool information - so glad I found it.

    -Mike-
    Walmart is reputed to sell HTH stabilizer, which is something like 98% pure. Just look at the label to be sure there's no copper/cupra/cuprous compounds listed and it should be fine. Double check the calculations to be sure you've entered pool size properly and all that, so you don't overdo the baking soda. It dissolves easily.
    pool-school/recommended_pool_chemicals
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Looks like I'm off to wallyworld / homedepot/lowes, wherever has bulk baking soda then.

    I'll have a look-see at the HTH stabilizer at wallyworld and see if it's got any of the items you mentioned.

    I used the TPF "goals" for the calc, and it came back as 362 oz, with a pool size of 17130 gallons, and I've double checked my math, so I think I'm all good there - just wondering if I can find a big bulk bag of the junk somewhere, instead of a bunch of little A&H boxes.

    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Quote Originally Posted by mmcgirr
    Looks like I'm off to wallyworld / homedepot/lowes, wherever has bulk baking soda then.

    I'll have a look-see at the HTH stabilizer at wallyworld and see if it's got any of the items you mentioned.

    I used the TPF "goals" for the calc, and it came back as 362 oz, with a pool size of 17130 gallons, and I've double checked my math, so I think I'm all good there - just wondering if I can find a big bulk bag of the junk somewhere, instead of a bunch of little A&H boxes.

    -Mike-
    Costco near me sells Baking Soda in a 13.5 lb bag for $6.16. It's over in the food zone, near the hundred pound sacks of sugar.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    One last thing before I leave for the store - I'm not quite sure how to read the CYA/FC chart - so I'm not sure what my shock level should be - could you give me some clarfication in that regard?

    Oh sorry - other "last things":
    -Should I let the pump run for several hours to incorporate the baking soda? Should I let it run overnight (I'd like to save on elec. as much as possible, but I also want to make sure I don't shoot myself in the foot by cutting it off too early.)

    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Quote Originally Posted by mmcgirr
    One last thing before I leave for the store - I'm not quite sure how to read the CYA/FC chart - so I'm not sure what my shock level should be - could you give me some clarfication in that regard?

    -Mike-
    Since your CYA value is some number below 20, I'd add enough to bring it up 20 and call it 30 for now. Which puts the FC shock level to 12.

    It won't register on the tester for about a week, just assume it's there. You can recheck it and fine tune it after a week has gone by.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Thanks a bunch, appreciated!

    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Alrighty, I added 4 5Lb bags of baking soda (80oz *4 = 320 oz), and 4Lb of stabilizer (by the way, the HTH stuff is 86% pure, or so it sayeth on the tube.

    I've got 4 bottles of 8.25% bleach waiting in the wings - should I wait to add those until all the stabilizer is gone from the sock I have in the pool, or can I add that directly (after waiting a while to re-check TA, anyway).

    I figure since I've added the baking soda @ 6pm, that I'll run the pump in filter mode until about 10pm, then re-check pH - or should I wait for overnight? Trying to figure out how long to run the pump after making changes is the thing I'm having the most trouble with it seems.

    Thanks,
    -Mike-

    [attachment=0:35l4kkbf]5-5-2013-green pool.jpg[/attachment:35l4kkbf]
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    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Yes you want to keep chlorine in it, it will take some days for CYA to dissolve and show up in your tests. Perhaps using the pool calculator you could adjust the CYA number up as it dissolves to make sure you are keeping you FC high enough.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Alrighty, then I'll start adding the chlorine to the pool. Thanks

    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    At this point I would re read shocking your pool in pool school. That's what you need to do, it would go quicker if you could get out all the debris, you'll go through 4 gallons real quick I'm guessing.
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    I concur that getting all the junk out would make it would go quicker / better, but unfortunately, all the tools are busted from the orig. owner. I've got new ones coming (should be here by Wednesday), so I'll just have to make do with adding more bleach for the immediate future.

    And, I screwed up my "gallons" math - I knew I should've bought more while I was there (I'm sure I'll go through 12 bottles this season, not sure why I didn't just buy them all then - besides, we use it for our laundry anyway, so even if it "gets old" we can still use 'em for laundry - no biggy either way.) So, back to the store I go!

    Thanks!
    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Good Morning!

    So, after adding the chlorine shock, the stabilizer and the baking soda, this is what we have:

    TC: Orange - so I'm guessing it's still in shock mode, though with the test kit I have (HTH 6-way until the better one gets here), I have no way of knowing what the actual level is (it has stayed pretty solid - same shade - since last night)
    TA: 80 ppm (that's stayed pretty solid since yesterday night)
    pH: 6.8+ - it's a little darker than the 6.8 block, but lighter than the 7.2 block

    [attachment=0:3ivviskf]5-6-2013-bluegreen-cloudy-730AM 480x320.jpg[/attachment:3ivviskf]

    So, seems like it's progressing, I just don't know how much chlorine to add to keep it at shock level - should I add maybe a 1/2 jug of 8.25% just to maintain it at 12-13+?

    And one other thing I forgot to mention - we're supposedly getting rain from Thursday through Sunday this coming weekend. So if that happens, is there anything important I need to know about that?

    Thanks!
    -Mike-
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    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    I just don't know how much chlorine to add to keep it at shock level - should I add maybe a 1/2 jug of 8.25% just to maintain it at 12-13+?
    Almost impossible to say.....we would guess just like you.

    That's why we STRONGLY encourage anyone shocking their pool to have an FAS/DPD test to take out the FC guesswork. Even more problematic will be when you try to determine if you have finished shocking. I would limp along until your FAS/DPD test gets in and then you will be able to shock correctly.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Indeed, that's what I figured, and I cannot wait until Wednesday to come (That's when the taylor should arrive).

    So, I figure if I notice any change in hue of the "orange", I'll just add a little bit more chlorine to bring it back to the darker shade. Luckily, I'm pretty decent at differentiating small changes in color.

    I do so wish I had found this forum a while ago, so all this stuff could have been sorted out prior to opening the pool - oh well, live and learn!

    Thanks!
    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    One other thing, assuming you are at a level of FC>10PPM your PH test is not going to be accurate.

    I'd just keep adding doing the best you can until Wednesday. Good Luck!

    Oh and i can't think of any real issues with the upcoming extended rainfall. It could dilute your numbers some. Do you have an overflow, or do you have to manually lower the water level?
    18'x43' Sport Pool
    19,000 Gallons Vinyl Liner 3'-3.5'-4'
    SWCG and D.E. Filter
    Test Kits - Pool Calculator - Chlorine/CYA Chart - Pool School

    Secret Weapon for Pool Chemistry Testing

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    No overflow, so I would have to manually adjust. However, I'm actually hoping for rain, as then I'd just, when I get the vacuum, vacuum to waste and not have to worry about refill. Win win I guess!

    I added a half-gallon of bleach just to"keep the orange" as it were.

    And yup, I don't expect the ph I'm reading to be accurate, I just take the measurement to ingrain the process in my mind since I've never owned a pool before

    Thanks!
    -Mike-
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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    Re: Green water - moved topic from introductions

    Tested again. There is now foam on top. Question, is the foam from oxidation of the organics? Just curious what makes it foam.

    Here's another picture:

    [attachment=0:2niw8jpm]IMG_20130506_175110.jpg[/attachment:2niw8jpm]

    Stats,
    Tc dark orange
    Ph 6.9 ish
    Temp 72
    H2O temp 66
    Bright sun, direct sun since 7am

    Thanks
    -Mike-
    Attached Images Attached Images
    27' ~14,983.5 gallon AG Vinyl; 1HP 60GPM Hayward Pump; 35GPM (filtration design flow) Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter S180T (150 Lbs.)

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