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Thread: Proper Circulation

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    Proper Circulation

    http://www.parpool-spa.com/Page/Pool/Pa ... tting.html

    Is this a good idea?

    As a quick aside I just Flocced the pool and it says to wait a day and than vacuum. I Flocced the pool at 8:45 and the pump after its 1 hour run was done at 9:45. Should I wait all the way till 9:45 tonight?

    At 9:39 in the morning it looks pretty settled on the bottom...my pool actually looks sorta clear with all the junk that floated to the bottom. Should I wait?

    Thanks for the help

    Oh and one more thing I read my cleaner manual and it says for optimal coverage to point the returns downward. What is the best method to move them? I was thinking maybe I could grip them with something as I can't turn the nozzle that lets you move the return with my hand.

    They haven't been moved for awhile we think. We got this pool in January last year, and the return dials or whatever you call them are stuck. My mom is worried about breaking it trying to turn them.

    Some pool guy said they should be pointed up at the water. Confused about the discrepancy. Is it better in general to have them pointed up for general circulation, but for cleaning pointed down? They don't move very well lol.

    http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/~/medi ... -2050.ashx

    The manual says down, but that is for cleaning so not sure if that's ideal to use them that way in general or not.

    I just read a bit on the why of using different return flows. I guess a picture of where all the returns would be would help. I have an irregular shaped pool with 4 returns. I think I'll get a picture of them up later don't know where the camera is. For now would all down be ok for the cleaner?
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    I don't think the circulator is necessary. A pool with standard returns will fully circulate in less than an hour. Plus it adds a lot of head loss so it reduces flow rates.

    Most cleaners suggest pointing the returns downward but if your cleaner works without doing that, then you are better off pointing the returns for the best skimming.
    Mark
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    I don't think the circulator is necessary. A pool with standard returns will fully circulate in less than an hour. Plus it adds a lot of head loss so it reduces flow rates.

    Most cleaners suggest pointing the returns downward but if your cleaner works without doing that, then you are better off pointing the returns for the best skimming.
    Yeah, the Baracuda G3 I have says point them downwards. What constitutes bad skimming?

    If I point them all down it should circulate everything with that many returns I would think.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    By skimming I mean the skimmer collecting surface debris. If all the returns are point down then there will be minimal surface movement and the surface debris may not make it to the skimmer. Although if you don't have a lot of floaties then it may not matter much.
    Mark
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    By skimming I mean the skimmer collecting surface debris. If all the returns are point down then there will be minimal surface movement and the surface debris may not make it to the skimmer. Although if you don't have a lot of floaties then it may not matter much.
    I could just collect surface trash with a net right? They collect fairly decently.

    I have another issue. I just figured out what they meant by Vacuum to waste. Sorta new to this pool thing and just found out that instead of using the cleaner to clean up the Floc gunk and it going to the filter your supposed to vacuum to waste. We don't have a setup to do that. I was thinking we could run the cleaner and have it work like normal and the filter will catch some of the stuff and than we can clean the filter.

    We will have to Floc more than once like this, but it doesn't seem we have a good way to vacuum to waste with this setup.

    Or perhaps as long as the the particles are still attached to the Floc we can just run the cleaner and clean the filter several times until we get all of the stuff out?
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    You should not use floc if you can't vacuum to waste. It has a tendency to muck up the filter quite badly.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Well there is tons of stuff on the bottom. Already did it sadly. Should I just filter like normal than and clean it until the pool is clear? Its obvious that its not clear because of the junk that is still in the water.

    I figured getting it all together would make it easier to remove.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    With larger particles getting stuck in the filter it will fill up quicker and than we can clean it. Without the ability to vacuum to waste its either filter the small stuff into the filter and clean or filter bigger stuff. Won't the filter get more in it with the bigger stuff faster?

    We are going to have to clean it multiple times anyway to get rid of it all, but I was thinking it would collect faster with the bigger particles. I don't know....I guess you know more than me, either way without being able to vacuum to waste it seems really time consuming to get all the stuff out of the water.

    We definitely need to keep track of it better during the off season so we don't have to remove all this stuff next year. I'm hoping adding Borates will help.

    Mucking up the filter is a good thing if I can't vacuum to waste isn't it? If its in the filter I can clean the filter. If its in the pool and I can't vacuum to waste than I can't remove it except through the filter.

    Maybe I'm making some wrong assumptions...probably am considering your saying its better without the Floc.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

    Caldera Vacanza Marino Vanto Spa VMA4R6393

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    I'm hoping adding Borates will help.
    It will not. You will need to change the management (or lack thereof) of your pool water. I can tell from your post you already know that, I just don't wan't you to pin any hopes on borates being some "magic bullet"......it's not
    Dave S.
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    I'm hoping adding Borates will help.
    It will not. You will need to change the management (or lack thereof) of your pool water. I can tell from your post you already know that, I just don't wan't you to pin any hopes on borates being some "magic bullet"......it's not
    I know its not a magic bullet. I meant more in terms of managing the pool. I know adding Borates isn't going to mean I can just set it and forget it for the off season. If the pool has water I need to maintain or its going to be a disaster after its over and I'll have to clean all the junk out again next year.

    I was surprised at how much Algae grew starting even before the temperatures got up. They still aren't consistently even in the 70s, but if you don't add chemicals it grows pretty well.

    I plan on testing more often in order to keep up with it and hopefully keep the water clear.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Can you post a full set of test results? I just reread the thread, and I'm not understanding the objective here.

    If you have any algae in the pool, you have to shock it. Shocking it is an involved process, not product, that requires maintaining an elevated FC level for a long duration to completely eliminate whatever is living in your pool. If you don't completely eliminate it and then you let the FC level drop, the algae will re-multiply and come back.

    Bleach kills the algae, and the filter filters out the dead stuff. There's no way around it, and the filtering process takes time. You will have to clean your filter very often at first, but as the shock process progresses, the cleanings will slow down.

    Borates are optional, and should only be added to the pool once it is clean, clear, and balanced, and you have a thorough understanding of the pool's chemistry.
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Smykowski
    Can you post a full set of test results? I just reread the thread, and I'm not understanding the objective here.

    If you have any algae in the pool, you have to shock it. Shocking it is an involved process, not product, that requires maintaining an elevated FC level for a long duration to completely eliminate whatever is living in your pool. If you don't completely eliminate it and then you let the FC level drop, the algae will re-multiply and come back.

    Bleach kills the algae, and the filter filters out the dead stuff. There's no way around it, and the filtering process takes time. You will have to clean your filter very often at first, but as the shock process progresses, the cleanings will slow down.

    Borates are optional, and should only be added to the pool once it is clean, clear, and balanced, and you have a thorough understanding of the pool's chemistry.
    I'm well aware of the shock process. All my numbers are in range. I wasn't posting to figure out how to clear the pool and I'm 100% sure I just need to remove dead algae etc..

    The main point of this thread is asking about pool return angles where they should be pointed for cleaning, and how to use Floc in order to necessitate this. After already floccing I've found its not recommended. JasonLion says Floc mucks up the filter so I shouldn't use it since I can't vacuum to waste.

    Than I was asking if Floc with the larger particles it makes might make the cleaning faster since it does muck up the filter. At this point I'm pretty clear on my course of action to clear my pool.

    I just need to let the filter run and clean the filter as needed which will take time as there is quite a bit of dead organics in the pool while maintaining a good chemical balance including my FC. I'll make sure to add borates after I'm doing clearing the pool and adjusting the chemicals.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    I'm starting to wonder if my filter will ever filter any of the stuff out. If I understand correctly the filter pressure goes up as it filters because of the things its trapping. The filter pressure doesn't seem to be going up at all.

    I've had the cleaner cleaning for several hours with tons of junk on the bottom of the pool from Floccing it. Is it possible that its not trapping anything? How long should it take to notice some increase in pressure from trapped junk or whatever you want to call it?

    I'm thinking it has something to do with the size of my filter. Someone said something about it being 112.5 square foot which is very undersized for a 22000 gallon pool according to them.

    I guess they didn't take into account that there are 4 cartridges in that model. 112.5*4 is 450 sq. ft. Its not undersized, but it is old so maybe its not working properly.

    I don't have any clue how fast a filter is supposed to work...so maybe it is working just slowly.

    I guess it does mention in a post that it can take up to a week to clear the water. I guess I do have a ton of stuff in there so I'm just being impatient.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    [attachment=0:1wlhp1yh]Returns.jpg[/attachment:1wlhp1yh]

    Here is a picture of where the returns are. You can't really see them but knowing where they are perhaps someone could give me a good idea on where I should point each one.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Re: Proper Circulation

    I was thinking return 1 toward the steps downward...return 2 toward skimmer 2 pointed up return 3 toward the bottom of the pool in the deep end and return 4 toward the skimmer 1

    Returns 1-4 in this example start at the closest one and go clockwise. Skimmer 1 is the closest and skimmer 2 is the farthest.

    So...that sound good?
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Is that the skimmer I see on the left side in the middle? If so, the eyeballs should be aimed to produce a clockwise flow in the pool. Aim some level and some down.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Is that the skimmer I see on the left side in the middle? If so, the eyeballs should be aimed to produce a clockwise flow in the pool. Aim some level and some down.
    Yes it is a skimmer. There is one there near the shallow end and one near the deep end.

    So you are saying something like this

    [attachment=0:3tmbk9d9]Returns flow.jpg[/attachment:3tmbk9d9]

    Where would each of them be pointed? Also with these four returns if I have them all going that direction I don't have much circulation in the deep end...so not sure what to do.'

    By circulation in the deep in I mean in the under the water where the main drains are which is right in the middle of the back of the pool. In my first example I would have return three pointed down into the deep end. With this one return three is pointed toward the shallow end.
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    You're going to have to play with them some to get good skimmer action and good circulation. There's no one way to aim them.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Proper Circulation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    You're going to have to play with them some to get good skimmer action and good circulation. There's no one way to aim them.
    Yeah, they really don't move around all that much. I'm thinking about the

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3NyFXYK7E0

    It has 2 bad reviews on Amazon saying something about only pointing downward, but I read a mention of it being able to move around more than that...not sure if its a problem with a defective part or what.

    I bought one to try.
    Lewisville, Texas 22,000 Gallon IG Plaster Chlorine FNS Plus Vertical Grid D.E. Filter 60 sq. ft. 150 GPM Push/Pull Valve Hayward Ecostar SP3400VSP Baracuda Zodiac G3 Cleaner

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