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Thread: AA Treatment - partial failure

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    AA Treatment - partial failure

    Iron stains are on 75% of saltwater pool (10,000 gal pool) bottom and have been there 5+ years, sort of like amoeba shaped with no definite edges. Used the AA treatment to try to remove stains. I took the chlorine down to 0, and ph down to 7.1-7.2 . Added 1 lb. of AA and let pump run 24 hrs straight. Added algicide also. There was some lightening but not much. The next day added another 1 lb. AA and sequestrant and let pump run 24 hrs. Couldn't see much success except there are now some visible "streaks" where some stain removal occured going toward the bottom drain .

    The next day I added 1 lb of Suncoast Iron and Cobalt Remover. There was some more lightening after letting this work for 24 hrs but almost entire stain still visible (lighter than before I started though). Let run another day then added 1 1/2 gal Chlorine to return pool to normal.

    Is there any reason the AA treatment didn't get rid of all stains? Did I do something wrong? Since it lightened them about half way, why not total removal?

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    The quantity of ascorbic acid varies with the size of the pool and with how much metal there is on the pool surface. Stains are deposits of metal. The thicker the metal layer, the more ascorbic acid it takes to remove the stain.

    It might be good to verify that the stains really are iron stains and can be removed with ascorbic acid. Place a vitamin C tablet on a stained area and see if the stain clears up in that area. If the stain is iron, it should vanish or at least lighten dramatically in that area. If there is any doubt, try a second vitamin C tablet after half an hour. If that still doesn't remove the stain, then you have stains that can not be removed with ascorbic acid. If that does clear up the stain in that local area, you just need to use more ascorbic acid than you used the first time.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Since they lightened up I thought they were iron stains. I put 3 Vit. C tablets on stains and they did nothing. I guess I'm back to square one. Any recommendation as to a good test kit?

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Thanks for response. I should have been more clear. I meant a good stain test kit.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Well for us to help, getting good number for ch, ta, ph, fc, cc, cya is important to discover if you have calcium scaling, or organic scaling etc....

    If you have a trichlor puck, you can put that on the stain and see if it lightens...if it does, then the stain is organic.

    As for metal stains, I think Jack's magic brand has a stain kit.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    The Jack's Magic Stain ID kit is quite good, though pricey.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Got the Jack's Stain Identification kit as suggested and adjusted water to proper levels. Used as directed, and unfortunately, nothing removed with any of 3 packets. The stains are still mottled on pool floor. Don't know why some tan stains were partially removed using the AA method but most were not, although maybe lightened. Those removed were same color and appearance as those not removed.

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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Well for us to help, getting good number for ch, ta, ph, fc, cc, cya is important to discover if you have calcium scaling, or organic scaling etc....

    If you have a trichlor puck, you can put that on the stain and see if it lightens...if it does, then the stain is organic.

    As for metal stains, I think Jack's magic brand has a stain kit.
    Here's the numbers before using Jack's Magic Stain Identifer Kit per local pool store..
    TC - 0.0
    FC - 00
    pH --7.6 ( my testing 7.2)
    TA - 105
    CH - 375
    CYA - 60
    TDS - 4950
    Salt - 3400

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Just because CH is only 375 now doesn't mean it always has been. There's always the chance you have hard water (It helps us a lot to know where you live) and that is Calcium scaling. It doesn't always look white the way you'd expect. It can look tan or bluish grey, and if it hardened up when the pool was dirty and neglected, you could have stuff embedded in the scale. Pictures would be nice.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    I live on east coast of Florida.








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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    It does sort of look like calcium scaling. Keep the pH on the low end 7.2>7.4 and hit it with a steel brush in one spot for about a week and see if you see any improvement.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    Any other suggestions?

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    Re: AA Treatment - partial failure

    impala1ss,

    I think that it possible that the numbers supplied by your pool store could have been incorrect unless they were using a Taylor test kit, or the one used on this forum, and all the chemicals were still current. If using Taylors you can call their number, 1-800-837-8548, read out the codes and they will advise if they are still usable. Without a good test kit you are really walking in the dark as regards the pH.

    If you did the AA treatment at too high a starting pH, say above 7.3, the AA may not have been as effective as it should be. If the AA was old, especially if it were older than 2 years, it would be very ineffective against stains, what was the good by date? If the pool is heavily stained, then 2 lbs per 10,000 gallons would be better, but ultimately you did use 2 lbs. And the Vitamin C (AA) tablet test showed no change to the surface, but how old are those tablets?

    I am not sure what the MSDS sheet states for the ingredients are for "Suncoast Iron and Cobalt Remover", if you cannot get a MSDS for it I would question whether you should be using it. I could not find one.

    You should use an HEDP sequestrant such as "Jack's Magic Purple Stuff", or "Metal Out". I believe that 2 bottles of HEDP in the AA treatment initially, is better than one. Have you been using a sequestrant? If so it is possible you have phosphate scaling. Did you test for phosphates? Maybe copper staining or scaling from a pool heater or old solar system, is that possible?

    It seems as Richard320 mentioned you may most likely have scaling issues and he supplied a reasonable solution for persons fit enough to undertake it, but it also seems you do not want to be scrubbing with a wire brush. If this is what you meant by "Any other suggestions?"

    Just recently I used a slightly modified AA method to remove both iron and other metals (AA only sequesters iron)and scale, it was very successful, and did not require wire brushing. I believe it also removes the physical iron and other metals from the pool and not, as the AA method alone does, just the stain which sequestrates only iron into solution for possible later re-staining if the pH rises above 7.4.

    The iron can be backwashed out in this revised method. As the procedure is very new, and viewed as experimental , so far only one other person has reported back on its use, but it seems they were satisfied. The link on how to do it will follow, but if you do use that method, please report your results to that post,, many people never do.

    The fact that some iron was removed in your initial attempt is good as far as this revised treatment is concerned as it likes to have both iron and orthophosphates, or at least one ingredient, as catalysts to help in the removal of scale and metals .

    In my own case the revised procedure removed stains AA was never able to remove, and I have done a lot of AA treatments over the years.

    Please note if you have copper stains I have not covered that yet but will get to it sometime soon. For copper it requires a high pH.

    Here is the link go to the very bottom of the page and about quarter of the way up are the revised instructions, good luck:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/used-...t56485-60.html
    10,000 gal plaster pool,3/4 hp WhisperFlo pump, Sta-Rite Great White GW9500 pool cleaner, Hayward 300 lb Sand Filter
    Use Magenta Stuff for Iron and Silica control.
    Balance: pH 7.7 Cl 7 -8 Alk 70-80 CH 325 CyA 30 in winter - 50 in summer NaCl 1010 TDS 1200

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