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Thread: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

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    Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Hello this is my first post in this forum, or any pool forum really. Our company has a patented design which dissolves gases into liquids such as oxygen in water or co2 in water. We work in the aquaculture and agriculture industries but we are now testing our systems in pools in the Phoenix area. (April 2013). Our company is Gaia Water (Gaia is oldest term for Mother Nature) : )

    We are looking to finance studies with the University of Arizona but in the mean time I am immersing myself in the current technology. The oxygenated water is a big hit with agriculture and aquaculture as it prevents algae. We are now oxygenating at 25-30ppm DO maintained. It seems that if water is above 22ppm it stays crystal clear even with bio such as leaves and twigs falling into the water. Typically tap water is 6-7ppm summertime in Phoenix so the levels we are working with are 5x more dissolved oxygen. What is nice is that if you turn our system off, the pool will stay highly oxygenated for days. We use oxygen concentrators from the medical industry, typically costing about $400 used. This way the oxygen is nearly free. Cost to oxygenate: as little as one tenth of one cent per gallon, including oxygen, unit lease and hydro. System produces

    The same unit can be hooked up to a bottle of co2 and works as a great ph balancer. Because our systems are extremely good at dissolving gases, we can maintain up to 2500ppm dissolved co2 in water. Tap water is 7ppm. Ph goes from 7.5 down to 4. 600 gallons water per hour cost .001/gal.
    You can also hook up both oxygen and co2 to the same system and dissolve both gases at the same time. Phoenix water is super high ph, so carbonated water is really needed to lower ph.

    However I worry that adding too much co2 will help algae grow so I am thinking of running oxygenated water by day, and co2 water by night, the opposite of what algae needs to survive in photosynthesis. This should keep algae away and balance ph.

    I would really enjoy chatting with anyone who has experience with naturally oxidizing water. We believe the oxygenated water is much better than ozonating water because ozone has a shelf life of one hour, Gaia water has a shelf life of days.

    I did not put our website address in this note because I am not sure if it would be innappropriate.

    Looking forward to chatting with you!

    Cheers
    Tom
    Oxygenating and carbonating water systems for agriculture/aquaculture and now pools!

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Welcome to TFP!

    In a swimming pool you need to maintain the PH between 7.2 or 7.5 and 7.8. For people following our approach the PH tends to drift up due to CO2 outgassing, though that might be very slowly or quite quickly. For people using "pool store" methods the PH will tend to go down steadily because trichlor tablets are acidic.

    Suppressing algae can be useful, though you are still going to need a sanitizer to kill virus and bacteria. In a outdoor residential pool, effective algae suppression will allow you to run at a slightly lower FC level, and use less total chlorine, though the effect will not be dramatic. That limits how much one will be willing to spend on a system that does that.

    I'm fascinated about how algae suppression works with your system. Do you know what process/effect of your system is suppressing algae?
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Algae is a plant that we deal with in agriculture and aquaculture. Photosynthesis during daylight hours, nutrients and co2. Dark hours plants convert stored energy and use oxygen to convert to sugars. High levels of oxygen in water chokes algae as it is surrounded by oxygen. Oxygenating water replaces gases such as co2 during saturation.

    The thing is, nobody until now has any prior knowledge or field experience regarding super saturated oxygen in water. Or super saturated co2 in water., I talk to microbiologists and contract with them.
    Some department heads of universities. They do not have experience themselves with super saturated oxygen in water. We are gold sponsor University of Arizona CEAC happening this week in Tucson. World leaders in agriculture and NASA collaborators. So we are breaking new ground in several areas and acknowledged by a Nobel Laureate recently.
    Our company is working with municipal governments, demonstrating our cleaning technology that cleans better, faster, cheaper without soap or chemicals. Just saturated co2/o2 in water. (AZ)
    It is our mission to remove much or all chemicals from pools, lakes and streams and bring water back to life.

    You mentioned the ph needs to be at a certain level. Why? If you are not using chemicals, only co2 in water a ph of 5 should be fine. How do I know? I don't today, but I will soon. Because when you go to the store and buy a bottle of carbonated water for a dollar a pint, the 4.5 ph is a health drink.
    It is legal to children and the elderly. I am guessing if it is ok to drink, it's ok to swim in. Not much of a gamble. And beverage companies put in their additives, sodium bicarbonate and others. For the fizz and co2.

    Our systems carbonate water, without additives or fizz. Pathogens including cholera cannot survive.
    Ph 4-5. Cleans buildings, cleans Bentley autos (Penske auto Scottsdale) and if you add gin, you get a gin and tonic : )

    Most pathogens are anaerobic such as E.coli and cannot survive a highly oxygenated envrionment.
    Why use ozone if it has a shelf life of one hour? Sure it cleans whatever is in the pump/tube vacinity but if little Johnny has 'an accident' in the middle of the pool, it affects everyone until the whole water is exchanges and re ozonated. Oxygenated water smothers E.coli and bad stuff so accidents can be isolated and be dealt with locally and not waiting for the water to be treated an hour later, meanwhile infecting everyone in the current.

    For algae control in pools, oxygenated water (minimum 20ppm DO) during daylight. And
    some co2 at night. Works amazing..... For pathogens, academic testing is just beginning.

    It would be great to be accepted into your community. We do not have anything products to date for the pool industry but perhaps collaboration with peers in the industry will allow for many to benefit should our technology prove successful.

    Thank you.

    Tom R
    Oxygenating and carbonating water systems for agriculture/aquaculture and now pools!

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    I think your pH logic is a little flawed. Soda is safe to drink ... Coke will also clean off corroded battery terminals and I am certainly not going to pour it into my eyes One of the main reasons of maintain a neutral pH is swimmer comfort (eyes and skin) in addition to not corroding pool equipment.

    I am clearly not the right person to try to discuss kill rates of various pathogens ... so will allow other to do so
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Quote Originally Posted by geotommy
    You mentioned the ph needs to be at a certain level. Why? If you are not using chemicals, only co2 in water a ph of 5 should be fine.
    A PH of below 7.2 will cause your eyes to burn underwater, the lower the PH the worse the effect. Also, plaster is very sensitive to the PH, and other pool finishes are somewhat sensitive. With very low PH plaster will suffer severe pitting after not too long. Vinyl becomes brittle at low PH. Fiberglass is the least effected, but will age more quickly at low PH. Chlorine is less effective at lower PH levels. Finally, copper heat exchangers, common in gas heaters, will erode away when the PH is below 6.8.

    Thanks for the info on algae and dissolved oxygen!
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    i think if you use acids muriatic acid sulfuric acid to reduce pH your eyes will burn. We reduce pH levels with the air that you breathe. This is getting exciting! Thanks for your dialogue : )
    Oxygenating and carbonating water systems for agriculture/aquaculture and now pools!

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Nope. 100,000s of people use muriatic acid to lower the pH ... once it is in the water and circulated for 30-60 minutes, there are no ill-effects.

    EDIT: I will add that there are some systems that do inject CO2 into the water to lower the pH, but generally these systems seems to be more of a pain than they are worth since the compressed CO2 bottles do not last very long. Similar systems can also automatically inject MA into the water, which seems much more common. Although the vast majority of pool owners just manually add the acid when needed.
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Sure muriatic acid at the pH of 7.3 but what if you had a pH in a pool of 4.5 From Muriatic acid? Burn? Rather a pH of 4.5 with carbonated water and it was carbonated water instead of muriatic acid And it does not harm your skin? Then the low pH kills all pathogens?
    Oxygenating and carbonating water systems for agriculture/aquaculture and now pools!

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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    You need to go back and read Jason's post. It's not just eyes (though 4.5 pH will certainly burn them), there's a lot more items that have issues with low pH. It doesn't matter if the pH comes from CO2 or liquid acid, low pH is low pH.
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    As jasonlion said before, any halfway intelligent pool owner would never let their pH get that low due to the damage it would do to the pool itself and the equipment.

    I don't mean to be disrespectful, but we've wandered here a little. What point are you trying to make?
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Quote Originally Posted by geotommy
    i think if you use acids muriatic acid sulfuric acid to reduce pH your eyes will burn. We reduce pH levels with the air that you breathe. This is getting exciting! Thanks for your dialogue : )
    I eat 8% Acetic Acid1 in salad dressing, but it still dissolves Calcium from the coffeepot.

    1. Vinegar.
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Chemical peel?
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    When we dissolve co2 or o2 in water, it lasts for days. No bubbles, diffusers, stones. Extremely cost affective because it lasts. Green pool, oxygenate for 24 hrs, algae dies and floats to bottom. Vacuum and everything is squeaky clean. Rub a hand along the tile at waterline and any algae present will fall right off with no effort.
    What is the cost and time to shock a pool? And what are you left with? Chemical soup?
    Oxygenating during day smothers algae. Co2 at night does the same. We do both successfully in agriculture.
    Daytime operation quickly replaces co2 from night operation with oxygen saturation. We just finished tests in pools Scottsdale, AZ today. Works just fine. Algae dead pool clear. Cost less than chemical bath.
    I'm not trying to prove to anyone, simply trying to open dialogue in science. Please no more irate comments : )
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    We just finished tests in pools Scottsdale, AZ today.
    What tests were you doing? Do you have any documentation?
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    So, a key question. What is the cost of a treatment to kill all the algae in a green pool?
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Quote Originally Posted by geotommy
    When we dissolve co2 or o2 in water, it lasts for days. No bubbles, diffusers, stones. Extremely cost affective because it lasts. Green pool, oxygenate for 24 hrs, algae dies and floats to bottom. Vacuum and everything is squeaky clean. Rub a hand along the tile at waterline and any algae present will fall right off with no effort.
    What is the cost and time to shock a pool? And what are you left with? Chemical soup?
    Oxygenating during day smothers algae. Co2 at night does the same. We do both successfully in agriculture.
    Daytime operation quickly replaces co2 from night operation with oxygen saturation. We just finished tests in pools Scottsdale, AZ today. Works just fine. Algae dead pool clear. Cost less than chemical bath.
    I'm not trying to prove to anyone, simply trying to open dialogue in science. Please no more irate comments : )
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Quote Originally Posted by geotommy
    Most pathogens are anaerobic such as E.coli and cannot survive a highly oxygenated envrionment.
    Why use ozone if it has a shelf life of one hour? Sure it cleans whatever is in the pump/tube vacinity but if little Johnny has 'an accident' in the middle of the pool, it affects everyone until the whole water is exchanges and re ozonated. Oxygenated water smothers E.coli and bad stuff so accidents can be isolated and be dealt with locally and not waiting for the water to be treated an hour later, meanwhile infecting everyone in the current.
    While your approach for over-saturating what algae output, which is oxygen during the day and carbon dioxide at night, is interesting, this approach cannot be used for disinfection against bacteria in swimming pools since the kill times are much too slow. The standard used by the EPA approval of disinfectants for swimming pools (and spas) is DIS/TSS-12 which requires a 6-log (99.9999%) kill of Escherichia coli in 30 seconds or less and a 6-log kill of Enterococcus faecalis (formerly Streptococcus faecalis) in 2 minutes or less. This is to prevent person-to-person transmission of disease. Now these standards based on FIFRA rules restrict labeling of pesticide products and state/county laws/regs generally require an EPA-approved disinfectant in commercial/public swimming pools. Residential pools do not have these legal requirements except the pesticide labeling still applies.
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    After shocking a pool, you end up with clean water that is slightly saltier than it was before. Not chemical soup by any definition.
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    So, a key question. What is the cost of a treatment to kill all the algae in a green pool?
    800 watts x 24 hrs. $4.50 (including oxygen)

    Turn it on, come back next day, turn off. Let algae sink to bottom for a few hours then vacuum.
    The pool service company that tested it yesterday in Scottsdale said it worked far better than anything they had ever seen before. No chemicals. 20,000 gal pool at a condo complex.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Oxygenated Water System and Co2 system

    So are telling me that if I had a swamp pool, I could call you up and you would bring the system over to my house for a day and come pick up later and all I would way is the electricity??? I doubt that. What is the actual cost of renting/acquiring the system for a day or 2 of use?

    Well, it sounds like this system could be useful doing what you just described ... kill most (difficult to say all) of the algae and then try to remove it. But for continued maintenance, it does not make sense to me for the reasons described above ... namely kill times of pathogens.

    I could envision a swamp pool. Running your system for a day to kill "everything". Then followed by the normal shock process to verify everything is dead and cleared out and then return to normal chlorine maintenance.

    I agree with Richard. Would be nice to see a picture before you turn on the system and then a picture the next day showing everything sitting on the floor. Many times the dead algae does not just sink to the bottom.
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