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Thread: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizing

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    Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizing

    Hi, here are the specs of my pool:
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    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 1.5HP Hayward Super II pump. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control. 1 skimmer, 5 returns (3 on walls, 2 on stairs).

    I'm having some work done and my pool maintenance guy recommends going from sand to a cartridge system.

    Does anyone recommend against it? I would be happy to cut down on maintenance.

    He recommends the Hayward C5030, it covers 525sqft, has 4 filters, I've read it compares to the pentair. Does that sound large enough, I know you are supposed to oversize, I see they just releasead 700sqft model, but originally my guy said I could even go with the smaller 425sqft model, so I thought I was already over sizing.

    One other thing, in another thread I had going, it was brought to my attention that my pump is oversized for my pool and current sand filter, would that still be the same case for a cartridge filter? I was going to have an mueller downgrade done this year bringing it somewhere closer to 3/4hp I believe, should I go even lower to a 1/2, does having a cartridge change anything?

    I didn't consider DE because I didn't want to mess with powders and they aren't too well supported where I live, we'll neither are cartridges but more so, I do a lot of night swimming and I was generally interested in the improved filtration and reduced maintenance and cartridges seem to fall right in the middle.

    Thanks!
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    While I have never owned one I don't see cartridge fitlers as lower in maintenance than sand filters, if anything they have more maintenance, the big advantage they have is you don't use a lot of water backwashing which can be an issue in location with water restrictions or where water is expensive.
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    For your pool we would recommend a minimum 3.9 sq. ft. sand filter or a minimum 318 sq. ft. cartridge filter.

    As Isaac-1 said, I too would not consider the cartridge as lower maintenance, although the one the pool maintenance guy is suggesting should be fairly easy to maintain, since it is oversized and my only have to be cleaned once a season. Cleaning carts is not my idea of fun though.

    Do you have water restrictions, or restrictions in where you backwash? What is your fill source? What are you using as a chlorine source?

    All though your pump is likely larger than you need, you may want to look at just changing the motor out for a 2-speed and then run the pump most of the time on low.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    I'm using a SWG as my chlorine source.

    I have no water restrictions, it was more about water clarity, and I don't see it being a big deal if I would have to clean it once a season, I'm still on the fence because I think for sure my current filter is undersized and my pump is oversized, worst part is my pool is only in its 4th season.

    I was told changing the impeller was a cheap fix, like $30 or so for the part and was equivalent to using a lower HP motor, which 2-speed would you recommend and what price range do they typically sell for? Being a 2-speed, when would I run it low vs high? I've never had a 2 speed? In my areas, you typically see 2-speeds only sold on above ground pools, and in ground pools are sold with oversized pumps and undersized fitters and clueless owners such as myself.

    Just curious, how many sq feet is a 300lb sand filter equivalent to?
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    A 2 speed motor is normally run on low speed for day to day circulation and only run on high speed for backwashing a sand filter, vacuuming the pool, or if you have a pump driven pool cleaner.

    Using a smaller impeller is indeed the same thing as getting a smaller pump. Though getting a smaller pump is no substitute for getting a two speed pump. Replacing the impeller requires replacing the shaft seal as well, so it ends up being a bit more than $30, but not all that much more. You also need to replace the shaft seal if you are replacing the motor. Doing both at the same time is roughly the same amount of effort as replacing either one separately.

    A 300 lb sand filter is around 3 sqft of sand, a little smaller than what linen is recommending, and roughly equivalent to a 250 sqft cartridge filter.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    A 2 speed motor is normally run on low speed for day to day circulation and only run on high speed for backwashing a sand filter, vacuuming the pool, or if you have a pump driven pool cleaner.

    Using a smaller impeller is indeed the same thing as getting a smaller pump. Though getting a smaller pump is no substitute for getting a two speed pump. Replacing the impeller requires replacing the shaft seal as well, so it ends up being a bit more than $30, but not all that much more. You also need to replace the shaft seal if you are replacing the motor. Doing both at the same time is roughly the same amount of effort as replacing either one separately.

    A 300 lb sand filter is around 3 sqft of sand, a little smaller than what linen is recommending, and roughly equivalent to a 250 sqft cartridge filter.
    Which 2 speed pump would you recommend if I were to swap the whole thing out entirely? Anything compatible with my Goldline Aqua Logic P4?

    If I didn't swap the whole thing out, are you saying I should be replacing the motor along with the impleller and seal shaft, sorry I'm confused about that part.

    If I did just downgrade, I guess I'm a worried now the manual vacumming might be too weak? Since you are saying you would use a high setting on a 2 speed pump.

    I guess I'm screwed no matter which way, my pump is wrong, my sand filter is too small, I have to make a change.
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    I guess I'm screwed no matter which way, my pump is wrong, my sand filter is too small, I have to make a change.
    I guess I don't know enough to agree with this statement. You mentioned you want to cut down on maintenance, but other than needing to backflush more often, it seems like you current setup should perform adequately. What am I missing?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac-1
    While I have never owned one I don't see cartridge fitlers as lower in maintenance than sand filters, if anything they have more maintenance, the big advantage they have is you don't use a lot of water backwashing which can be an issue in location with water restrictions or where water is expensive.
    It's just that in my current setup, my sand filter is too small for the pool, the pressure goes up quickly and I'm backwashing at least once a week, I was looking at a Hayward C5030 525sqft quad catridge system and based on my 4 month season. It is possible I may only have to clean it once at the end of the season.
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    I guess I'm screwed no matter which way, my pump is wrong, my sand filter is too small, I have to make a change.
    I guess I don't know enough to agree with this statement. You mentioned you want to cut down on maintenance, but other than needing to backflush more often, it seems like you current setup should perform adequately. What am I missing?
    I had problems opening last year and required a clarifier but at some point in the thread some people thought ny sand could be channeled due to my oversized pump, so I guess it stuck with me, I'm worried about it.

    I have other problems with the filter too, sometimes when it turns on, water sprays out from the head of the filter where you point to backwash, rinse, etc. Is it possible when I turned the system off/on I wasn't waiting long enough between shifting between filter or backwash and it broke a seal?
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Make your filter choice carefully. Almost everyone likes the type of filter they start with. If you are familiar with a cart, you like carts. If you know a sand filter, you like sand. Same for DE.

    While I agree your filter/pump combo is mismatched, your having to backwash so frequently is far more likely to be a problem of water chemistry than a small filter. A cart or any other type filter won't solve that issue......closer pool water management allows you to go far longer than anything else before you filter needs cleaning.

    Why did you have to use a clarifier?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    All 2 speed pumps are equally compatible with your automation system. You don't really need to worry about automation compatibility unless you are getting a variable speed pump.

    Switching to a 2 speed pump/motor will save you money on electricity. If your pump is working just fine and your electric rates are reasonable then it probably isn't worth doing that right now as it is unlikely to pay back the cost of the new motor. If your electric rates are higher than average, the best thing to do is probably to replace the motor with a 2 speed 1 HP motor and also get the 1 HP impeller and a new shaft seal all at the same time.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    All 2 speed pumps are equally compatible with your automation system. You don't really need to worry about automation compatibility unless you are getting a variable speed pump.

    Switching to a 2 speed pump/motor will save you money on electricity. If your pump is working just fine and your electric rates are reasonable then it probably isn't worth doing that right now as it is unlikely to pay back the cost of the new motor. If your electric rates are higher than average, the best thing to do is probably to replace the motor with a 2 speed 1 HP motor and also get the 1 HP impeller and a new shaft seal all at the same time.
    This is the model pump I have now, My pump model is C48L2N134B3 Hayward Super II.

    Assuming I was building today and based on my pool size, which specific pump model would you guys recommend? I see the Hayward Matrix mentioned often.

    For peace of mind and not about cost I might just swap out the motor and impeller or just sell what I have currently and buy the pump that you guys recommend, I remember my current maintenance guy (just for opening and closing) saying he didnt like the skimmer on the current pump either.

    If I did just swap out for a 1HP impeller and a 2 speed 1HP motor and a seal shaft, could you tell me which part numbers to swap out for to be compatible with the model I said I have, would this be 100% identical to just buying a new 2 speed 1HP pump, if not, what would be different?
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Hi guys, just bumping this one.

    So I'm either looking for a recommendation on a new Hayward 2 speed pump to meet my pool requirements, I have no fountains or anything like that.(doesn't have to be Hayward buy they are easily serviced in my area)

    Or part #s to convert my current pump to exactly the same thing as buying a new 2 speed and ill compare the costs. It's not clear to me if just changing the impeller, motor and shaft is the same thing, plus I have to pay someone to do it, so may be just easier to sell what I have.

    Thanks!
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    A 1 hp 2-speed in the model you have now would be a good fit for you.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    A 1 hp 2-speed in the model you have now would be a good fit for you.
    Thx, do you have a link to one, I can only find above ground models. I had thought the Matrix were the preferred ones?
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    The matrix is an above ground pool pump. You want to stick with an inground model. Just search for a 1 hp inground pool pump and you should find one.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    This is the model pump I have now, My pump model is C48L2N134B3 Hayward Super II.
    That is the motor model, do you have the pump model number?

    As bama said, the matrix is an aboveground pool pump. You need one that is certain to prime when the pump is above water.

    Here is a link to hayward's site for the smallest 2-speed superpump II but it is a 1.5 hp max rated (model: SP3010X152AZ): http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/lite...TSUPIIMX11.pdf

    A 2-speed superpump may be a better fit, since you can get them in lower hp, in this case the lowest is 1 hp full rated (model SP2607X102S) which has a lot lower flowrate than the pump above (which is good): http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/lite...LITSUPER11.pdf. I am not sure if you would have to change piping to fit this, I would give Hayward a call on that.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    This is the model pump I have now, My pump model is C48L2N134B3 Hayward Super II.
    That is the motor model, do you have the pump model number?

    As bama said, the matrix is an aboveground pool pump. You need one that is certain to prime when the pump is above water.

    Here is a link to hayward's site for the smallest 2-speed superpump II but it is a 1.5 hp max rated (model: SP3010X152AZ): http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/lite...TSUPIIMX11.pdf

    A 2-speed superpump may be a better fit, since you can get them in lower hp, in this case the lowest is 1 hp full rated (model SP2607X102S) which has a lot lower flowrate than the pump above (which is good): http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/lite...LITSUPER11.pdf. I am not sure if you would have to change piping to fit this, I would give Hayward a call on that.
    I got a little side tracked by my pool guy and he said I should look at the Hayward Tristar models, but from my other thread on that model, it appears I could have possible limitations on flow, so I followed the link you sent and I looked at all of Hayward's pumps, these are the only 2 I could find that are 2-speed 1HP or closest to.

    Would your choice still be the original Super Pump over the Super Pump II?

    Would you have considered any of the other Hayward model pumps, no one seems to mention variable speeds but I'm assuming that is because they are so exepnsive?

    I am looking forward to less noise, I was happy to read that the will happen when a pump runs on a low speed.

    Also, what % does the HP of a pump drop to on the low setting compared to the high setting?

    MODEL: Super Pump II SP3007EECA
    Total HP: 1:13
    Full Rate HP: 3/4
    Service Factor: 1.50
    Pipe Size: 2"
    DIM A: 15

    Model: Super Pump SP2607X102S
    Total HP: 1.00
    HP: 1
    Service Factor: 1.00
    Pipe Size: 2"
    DIM A: 13"
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

  19. Back To Top    #19
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    I don't think that Super II is a 2-speed. I would lean toward the 2-speed super (SP2607X102S ) you listed, since it is a better fit for your pool than the lowest sized super II (which I think I posted above).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    Also, what % does the HP of a pump drop to on the low setting compared to the high setting?
    In the end, on low you use about 1/4 the power (Watts) but the flow rate is only 1/2 (not 1/4) as compared to high.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Cartridge vs sand filter for 4 month season + pump sizin

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    I don't think that Super II is a 2-speed. I would lean toward the 2-speed super (SP2607X102S ) you listed, since it is a better fit for your pool than the lowest sized super II (which I think I posted above).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockstead
    Also, what % does the HP of a pump drop to on the low setting compared to the high setting?
    In the end, on low you use about 1/4 the power (Watts) but the flow rate is only 1/2 (not 1/4) as compared to high.
    It keeps coming back to the SP2607X102S, so that must be the pump for me. Hope I can sell the old one, it's fine either way, time to move on.

    Does the SP2607X102S have a feature that will turn off the pump if the skimmer ran low on water for some reason? what would happen in that situation? It's something I've worried about if I left for vacation, as well I noticed that when I had my pump on a timer through my Aqua Logic system, there had been times when the pump did not prime and it would keep trying forever.
    18' x 36" Ovalish 80,000 Litre Vinyl IGP. 2 speed 1HP Hayward pump SP2607X102S. 300 Pound Sand Filter. Summit Sum5 Heat Pump, Goldline Controls Aqua Logic P4 System, T-CELL-15 SWG, Aqua Pod Remote Control, Pentair 7845xx02 light.
    TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Stirrer, Pool Chemist in training.

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