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Thread: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

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    Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    I have been searching on this site, and it seems the experts here conclude that it is not possible for air bubbles to originate on the "pressure" side of the pump, which would include the filter and spider valve.

    I submit my symptoms/diagnostic tests to you:

    In "Filter" mode, air bubbles can be heard running through the filter (no bubbles in pump basket, indicating no suction side issues)
    In "Recirculate" mode, air in the system from turning the multiport valve quickly dissipates and quiet operation returns.

    From this, I surmise the water passing through the multiport valve is some how sucking air in through a leak.
    Thought I'd pose this here, as several threads seem to categorically rule out air bubbles being created at the filter.
    (Since it is under pressure, and not suction.)

    Also, to lube or not to lube the spider gasket? found some pretty good sounding advice here, which suggests no lube on the spider:
    http://swimming.about.com/od/pooland...mpoolvalve.htm
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    I wouldn't go as far as saying it is impossible, but it is astoundingly unlikely that anything that could happen in the multi-port would ever cause air to get into the system. It is amazingly easy for air to be getting in on the suction side and not be visually obvious in the pump basket, which is by far the more likely possibility.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    I don't mean to be difficult, but why would a suction side leak disappear when the valve is set in "Recirculate"?
    The only change is that it bypasses the filter media.

    I should also mention that things seemed OK, and the problem appeared after backwashing the filter today.
    I imagine there is some grit in the spider valve, but it was getting dark, so it comes apart in the morning.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Obviously any noise in the filter will stop as soon as you bypass the filter. Likewise air trapped in the filter will stop coming out of the returns as soon as you bypass the filter. Nothing there provides any clue to what is happening, nor does your proposed explanation make any sense at all. One far more likely possibility is that air could be in the filter for some other reason, such as a pressure side leak that lets air into the filter while the pump is off. Another possibility is a suction side leak you can't see combined with some misunderstanding or misdescription of the symptoms.

    Do you have any air bubbles coming out of the returns? Or is there just a noise in the filter? When you open the air bleed on the filter does air come out (and then water) or does only water come out? If you bleed the air out of the filter, does more air accumulate without the pump ever turning off, or does the pump need to turn off for more air to appear in the filter?
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Exactly the kind of info I am looking for! So, air in the filter itself, not necessarily coming in under pressure. Thanks.

    I will still look to the spider first, but the leak is likely happening while the pump is off then, and air gets into the filter.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    So tell me more about this "air bleed on the filter"....I don't seem to have one on my Hayward Pro Series sand filter. Is there a trick to finding that?

    I have the CompuPool replacement SWG, which allows me to see the bubbles right away as they stream by on the way back to the pool. The air seems to accumulate a bit in the SWG, which is my cause for alarm.
    I ran a few cycles of alternating high speed, low speed pumping, and the air bubble sounds seem to diminish over time. Low speed seems to get bubbles out of the filter and into the SWG, while high speed sweeps them out of the SWG and into the pool.

    I tried turning the pump off, and it did not increase the amount of air in the filter.

    Tell me this, is it by design that air gets into the filter when I backwash? When I cycle the valve, water runs down the waste pipe even when not under pressure while the valve is between positions or in "Waste" setting.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Quote Originally Posted by LotusRacerX
    So tell me more about this "air bleed on the filter"....I don't seem to have one on my Hayward Pro Series sand filter. Is there a trick to finding that?

    I have the CompuPool replacement SWG, which allows me to see the bubbles right away as they stream by on the way back to the pool. The air seems to accumulate a bit in the SWG, which is my cause for alarm.
    I ran a few cycles of alternating high speed, low speed pumping, and the air bubble sounds seem to diminish over time. Low speed seems to get bubbles out of the filter and into the SWG, while high speed sweeps them out of the SWG and into the pool.

    I tried turning the pump off, and it did not increase the amount of air in the filter.

    Tell me this, is it by design that air gets into the filter when I backwash? When I cycle the valve, water runs down the waste pipe even when not under pressure while the valve is between positions or in "Waste" setting.
    Is your Multivalve side mount? If so the bleed valve is on top of the filter housing.

    When you turn the multivalve to backwash and such, the water will go down to the inlet level.

    When you run your pump at normal speed and in filter position is the basket on the pump full of water? Do you have rough churning water? During the initial prime you will, but I'm asking if after it runs a few minutes what is it like? Im asking you this because this all seems so similar to my Ecostar problem, and that was because I had two 1 1/2" pipes going into a 1 1/2" tee and then into the pump. My pump was starving. A 2" tee and 2" line into the pump solved this issue.
    Before this change, my pump would run well in recirculate, but as soon as it was put through any real pressure it could not get enough water volume into the inlet.

    Hope this helps.
    16 x 32 Grecian Vinyl. Salt-Aqua Plus PS-4, Hayward Pro Series Sand Filter, Hayward Ecostar SP34000vsp, Gulfstream HE-125-T-A Heat/Cool heat Pump

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    If there is a multi-port valve mounted directly on the top of the filter there won't be an air bleed valve. Otherwise the air bleed should be on the top of the filter.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Valve is on top of the filter, so no bleed...bummer. No churn in the filter basket. I even redid the basket lid gasket. Motor was recently changed, so those gaskets are fresh still. Will check to see if it will allow 2" input pipe.

    Seems with the inlet pipe at a higher level than the outlet, the air can get trapped up there for awhile and churn around.

    It is possible that I don't always stick around to wait for the bubbles to make it out of the filter top....Now that I am trying to use the 2-speed pump at the low speed, the bubbles are able to get out of the filter head, and threaten to accumulate in the SWG, since the flow is not enough to clear them through.

    I may try to solve it by automating the HI/LO switch to be on HI for the first 15 minutes, and then go to LO, when the bubbles are cleared.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Quote Originally Posted by LotusRacerX
    ......air bubbles can be heard running through the filter....]
    I've read through this post several times and I can't find any description of visible bubbles. The only thing I read is bubbles that are being heard, as quoted above. Are you seeing bubbles come out your return ports about the same time you hear them in the filter?
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    The visible bubbles accumulate in the SWG, making me fear that enough air might get in there to cause it to arc and self destruct the SWG unit.

    I ran the pump on low all day today with only minimal bubbles accumulating. Seems to be a very long bleed process for the filter after each backwash, until I figure this out.

    And yes, bubbles also come out the jets into the pool. Sometimes even when bubbles cannot be observed in the SWG sightglass.
    They diminish over time, but when I returned home today and ran the pump at high speed, bubbles both cleared the SWG and could be heard swishing about the filter head.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    When you turn the pump off do you hear bubbles rising in the filter? There could be a leak in the valve that only leaks when the pump is off. This fills the filter with air and it is slowly purged out of the filter when the pump runs. Have you run the pump long enough on high speed to see if the bubbles disappear?
    Mark
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    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    It does not seem that the bubbles ever reduce when on high speed. Alternating high and low speed seems able to eventually purge the air. Possibly I have a suction side leak under high pressure??
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Possibly I have a suction side leak under high pressure??
    Quite possible. The O-ring on the pump strainer basket can stay sealed on low but leak when the "vacuum" is increased by the power of the pump.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    You are aware that the SWG it's self produces bubbles as part of it's normal operation when the cell is active?
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    I've got no bubbles in the strainer basket, bubbles in the filter, which pass through the SWG, and into the pool from the inlets.

    Guess I could rebuild the pump seals, but I just changed the pump recently, so they should be fresh.

    I've been pumping bubbles for about a month now. Has not really changed much.
    19k gal, STS1072R A.O. Smith C-Face Motor .75HP Full-Rated 2-Speed, Hayward Sand Filter

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    If the drain plug on the impeller housing of the pump is leaking you'll never see any bubbles in the pump basket. (I'm not sure what equipment you have since it's not in yoru signature.) Also there have been instances where there was a suction side leak that would seal off either under less than normal suction or more than normal suction (i.e. putting the multiport in recirc).
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Lot of work today,
    Changed drain plugs on pump ( no change )
    Replaced Pump Seal (no change)
    Inspected pump components ( they looked ok )
    remove suction side Jandy valve cover and put water jet in suction line ( no change )
    Did bucket test and not really that much water loss ( hard to tell its been windy )
    i guess it's time to spend some money and call a Pro !!!



    Sean Hannon
    30,000 Gallons gunite pool Coated by Fibertech
    Hayward Pro Grid 72 / Hayward multiport
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    CirCupool SWG RJ 60, 400.000 btu raypak , Built in SPA

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Hello,
    Not sure where your at on getting the air cleared out, but I also have a CompuPool CPSC48 SWCG. Overall I'm happy with it. I do get an air bubble in the cell when I run on low. I've had a bubble the length of the cell with maybe an 1/8 of an inch of the plates exposed. When I run the pump on high it clears out in less than a minute. My flow rate on high is 53gpm and low is about 20gpm.

    Have you tried rebedding/washing the sand in the filter.

    I do have a cartridge filter and now multi function valve.
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    Re: Can a Spider Gasket/Multiport Valve cause air bubbles

    Hi,

    Can someone please confirm that I should not be seeing air bubbles in my pump basket? I have the variable speed Viron P320 - and I can see them at all speeds. I also see them floating around in the SWC cell housing.

    Kind regards,
    Milan.

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