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Thread: New Equipment Suggestions

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    New Equipment Suggestions

    [attachment=2:27wm7yw1]Pool.jpg[/attachment:27wm7yw1]Hi all, been lurking for the last several months where I have learned a lot but it is time to make some decisions.

    Purchased a home with existing pool about 18 months ago. Pool and equipment were in less than ideal shape. Since the equipment was operational we decided to refinish the pool first which we did last year. Now it is time to deal with the equipment.

    What we have:

    Roughly 30,000 gallon pool in ground pool with detached spa. Heater does not work (wont fire - older Raypack Gemini Plus 400 BTU?). Pentair Clean & Clear Plus 320. Main Pump is a Pentair Wisperflow (Single Speed? with no issues). Spa Pump (leaks like crazy but works). Booster Pump (works but not using - have a robotic cleaner instead).

    I have switches by the house that run to a panel by the equipment but not all the switches are operational.

    I am hopeful that I can ask multiple questions but I would like to start with the equipment.

    1st Question: Can anyone give me an idea on the heater - does it make sense to troubleshoot or should I just expect to replace it? I have been looking at the Raypak 266,000 BTU for spa heating only.

    2nd Question: Am I correct that the filter (Pentair Clean & Clear 320) is undersized for a 30,000 gallon pool? I am looking at the Pentair Quad DE 100 SQ FT filter - does this seem like a good choice for my size pool or is this over kill.

    3rd: Even though my main pump is running without issues, should I consider replacing it with a variable speed (I live in SoCal where I regularly hit .40 KWH)?

    4th: If I install the VS pump can I exchange my existing main pump with the one for the spa which needs repair as it is leaking?

    I think I will need to replace all of my PVC piping as it is also in bad shape with multiple cuts/splices and crack repairs. I am concerned that I won't have enough room to cut out the old PVC to add new above the concrete deck. Any advice on how to proceed with re-plumbing the equipment would be greatly appreciated?

    Thanks in advance,
    DJ
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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Your heater looks old enough that it is probably best to just replace it. Chances are you could fix it but something else would break on it soon.

    We recommend getting the largest filter you can afford and have room for. Still, your current filter is acceptable if you want to keep using it.

    With very high electric rates and probably a rebate on buying the new pump you definitely want to look into replacing the pump.

    The spa needs a pump of a specific size for the jets to have the correct strength. If your current pool pump is the same size as your spa pump then you can replace one with the other, but I wouldn't do that if they are different sizes.

    If you are going to replace all the PVC, take some time to plan out the layout of the new plumbing. Your space is a little tight, so you really need to think through just how things will layout. That said, it shouldn't be too difficult to do better than what you have now.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Thanks for the response. As it relates to the heater that it's what i was thinking. Just replace it.

    As it relates to the swapping spa pump with my current main pump. They are both 2inch lines. Not sure if there its a difference between horsepower and output but the size is the same.

    Any feedback on the filter?

    Also, am i on the right track with the potential equipment i am looking at from my original post?


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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Are you going to do any automation? If so, you could get one pump to run both the spa and the pool, and have automated valves to adjust flow, etc. The cost difference in the size of pump would be negligible, and it would be one less system to have to maintain.

    As for suggestions, it looks as if you have 1.5" pipe going into the heater, and by doing so, you lose the advantage of the 2" that is everywhere else. Get a heater with 2" plumbing.

    Also, (I am sure this is in the works for the total replacement, but I will point it out) replace/repair the broken conduit under the right side electrical box.

    Get rid of the crummy PVC ball valves that break.

    You have a few, but I am a big fan of unions. Put them where you think you will need to have maintenance in the future. This will prevent your pipe from looking like it does now, with multiple cuts....

    Finally, it looks as though the pipes come through the pad. Your previous owner did you no favors with that. If it were me, I would cut the concrete so that I could get to the pipe below ground to make my additions. This woule make for a much cleaner install on my part. I would also leave a strip without concrete around the pipes so that if the concrete ever shifts, it will not break the pipes. I would put white rock around it to psuedo "match" the concrete.
    Science and Math Teacher
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Great advice regarding the concrete around the plumbing. Not that i want to chip out concrete but i think you are right, i need get to the pvc under ground. If i get below ground i will probably have a little more flexibility with my layout anyway. Thanks for that nugget i was not thinking that.

    Haven't even thought about automation but i will repair the conduit. Thanks and i might be looking for some future advice on that.

    Q - thoughts on whether the quad DE 80 would fit the bill vs. the 100 version for my 30 k pool?


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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    A general recommendation for a 30k pool would be around 84+ sqft. So either the 80 or 100 would likely be fine. Looks like you are pretty clean around the pool as far as dirt/plants, so likely the 80 would be sufficient.

    Bigger just lets you go longer between cleanings, but like I said, you have a lot of deck and few plants, so may only need to clean the 80 once/twice a season.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    OK, now that I think I should break up the concrete around the service lines, any suggestions on how best to do it without damaging the service lines and the gas line?

    Obviously, I will rent a cement saw to get through the slap but I will need to break the concrete up and I am hoping I can take several days to do the entire job of replacing plumbing and equipment.

    So, is is likely that I can do it so that the system still functions until I am ready to tackle everything else?

    Thanks, here is a better picture of what I am up against.
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Sorry for all the questions:

    Looking to purchase my equipment and associated valves.

    My question, should I try and replicate the setup that I have now as shown in the picture below with labels?

    The one thing I have noticed is that the flow at the skimmer is not great and I would love to be able to control that flow but I don't see where the main drain and the skimmer connect so I can place a valve at that point (assume that this takes place under the concrete).

    Also, I think the 1" check valve between the spa and pool return is to prevent the spa from draining back into the pool as it is slightly raised.

    Any thoughts/suggestions relative to my current set-up and the fact that I am going to tear down and re-pipe with 2" all the way around with new equipment (except to 1.5" water feature line and the 1" between the spa and pool return)?

    Thanks,
    DJ
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Different perspective here...I am a bit of a minimalist (or lazy ), I would probably not break concrete unless I absolutely had too. I think you can work with what you have above ground. Which way you go on that is up to you. I personally don't care what the equipment area looks like, as long as it is functional.

    Quote Originally Posted by golf4dj
    The one thing I have noticed is that the flow at the skimmer is not great and I would love to be able to control that flow but I don't see where the main drain and the skimmer connect so I can place a valve at that point (assume that this takes place under the concrete).
    Your floor drain may be plumbed into your skimmer...not ideal, but you could reduce the flow from the floor drain there to get more skimming action. If that is the way yours is, others with that setup will have to tell you how to do that. Do you know what skimmer you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by golf4dj
    My question, should I try and replicate the setup that I have now as shown in the picture below with labels?
    If you get a vs pump...you could use that pump for both general pool circulation and also to run the spa jets...I know others have theirs set that way, though I can see arguments for both setups.

    I am not positive about this, but I don't think you need the small tube run labeled "spa return flow", since you should be able to just adjust the 3 way valve above that to set the amount of flow diverted to the spa and a check valve could be placed on the "spa return" line. Again, I am not sure if this change is a good idea, hopefully others will chime in.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    I would definitely recommend the Pentair Intelliflo pumps. It is definitely a good investment considering electricity rates in California.
    I've had the VS (4x160) pump and it's been running great for 5 years now. Your local electric utility may still offer rebates for VS pumps. In fact, I believe that 2-speed or VS pumps are now required by law.

    I also happen to know a thing or two about the company that manufactures the variable speed drive controller for Pentair. Generally speaking, they are a top-notch company that makes high-quality stuff. Some of the newer VS pumps from other manufacturers probably have lower quality drive circuits.
    ~13500 gallon gunite pool, Pentair Intelliflo 4x160, Pentair 520 SF cartridge filter, Pentair MasterTemp 400 NG heater
    Pentair Easytouch with IC40 SWCG, Hayward Navigator on dedicated suction line

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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Different perspective here...I am a bit of a minimalist (or lazy ), I would probably not break concrete unless I absolutely had too. I think you can work with what you have above ground. Which way you go on that is up to you. I personally don't care what the equipment area looks like, as long as it is functional.
    Thanks Linen - Now you have me thinking again


    If you get a vs pump...you could use that pump for both general pool circulation and also to run the spa jets...I know others have theirs set that way, though I can see arguments for both setups.
    Linen or others - Not sure I am following here. I have the spa return tied in with my main pump so that when I want spa only (heater) I can switch both the incoming and return to spa so that it just circulates throughout the spa (sure this is normal) but the flow from the main pump just doesn't get the jets going. Therefore, I have the booster pump which just hits the spa jets. Not sure how I could have the main VS pump do both circulation (for heating) and jets which is on a separate line.

    Also, if I get the VS (which is likely) then can I simply switch over my current Pentair single speed main pump to drive the spa jets? (thanks peterl1365 for the endorsement on the VS).

    I am not positive about this, but I don't think you need the small tube run labeled "spa return flow", since you should be able to just adjust the 3 way valve above that to set the amount of flow diverted to the spa and a check valve could be placed on the "spa return" line. Again, I am not sure if this change is a good idea, hopefully others will chime in.
    Am I following correctly, if I eliminate the small tube "spa return flow" which clearly keeps water circulating through the spa then I would need to position the 3 way return to allow a small flow back through the spa otherwise I would suck the spa dry and/or run the risk of getting some nasty algae growth due to lack of circulation? If this is the case, is there any downside to having that small one inch line as a safeguard?

    Thanks for all the help, this is very informative.

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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    [attachment=0:iyb0f3xk]Main Pump(1).jpg[/attachment:iyb0f3xk][attachment=1:iyb0f3xk]Spa Pump1.jpg[/attachment:iyb0f3xk]OK, here i go with a couple more questions.

    1. Looks like I am leaning toward the Pentair VS Pump ($200 rebate in SoCal) and will use only for circulation which includes a couple of water features that I rarely use. My separate spa pump wont start (it leaked like crazy last year). It is a maxi-glass 2hp with a 2" inlet but only 1 1/2" outlet. My question, can I simply switch over my 1hp whisperflow pump with 2" on both ends to run the spa jets (5 jets total). I have attached a couple pictures of the pump data above with the one I would like to switch over on top and the current spa pump on the bottom.

    2. Recently purchased a used Hayward H250 LowNox heater (roughly 6 years old). Should I install with a bypass valve to allow flow back to pool/spa when heater is not operational (most of the time). Manual seems to suggest this is a good idea, however my current setup is not that way.

    3. Looks like I am settling in on the Pentair Clean and Clear 520 filter. Any feedback on that filter and will it do the job for my roughly 30,000 gallon pool. Currently have the clean and clear 320 filter and it seems under sized.

    Thanks
    DJ
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    1. Yes. You are up against the max flow of the pipe at 1.5" anyway, even with your 2" inlet. You *may* see some decrease in flow at the jets, but 1 hp should push 5 jets ok, especially if you are looking to save a few bucks. If you just HATE it, or it does not meet your needs, the same strainer basket and pump body serves pumps up to 2hp. You can change the motor and impellar to get some more flow.

    2. Yes, if you have any inkling that you will use it ever. This is the time to add stuff like that, and, it will save some wear and tear on your heat exchanger.

    3. No experience with the filter- mostly sand around these parts. Someone will chime in!!!

    Clay
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    For a 30k pool, we would generally recommend at least a 450 sqft cartridge filter ... so you will likely be much happier with the 520 over the 320 ... really just reduces how often you will need to clean it (and maybe increase flow slightly due to lower head loss).
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    OK, received my clean & clear 520 and the pentair vs pump to go with the Hayward h250 heater that i got off craigslist. Took everything out to start the replacement. Rather than break concrete i think i have just enough room to tie into the existing plumbing above the concrete slab.

    My question, the old pipe was painted. What do i need to do to get rid of the old paint before i solvent weld into the existing pipe.

    Thanks[attachment=0:3tfmgold]uploadfromtaptalk1366483602445.jpg[/attachment:3tfmgold]

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    I used sandpaper to get the paint off.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Sandpaper with a fine grit, then clear PVC cleaner, then PVC primer, then glue.
    Science and Math Teacher
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    18x36 IG Vinyl, 23000 Gallons with Jacuzzi (the bane of my existance) pumpworks
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    Making progress. y pipes are wayto close together but i an getting there.

    Is it ok tho use Christ's red hot blue glue to join the pvc pipe to the jandy valves?

    Not sure if three jandy valves are just black pvc our something else.


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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    The black valves are CPVC, so you need a solvent that can be used on PVC and CPVC ... I don't think what you have lists CPVC.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: New Equipment Suggestions

    [quote="jblizzle"]The black valves are CPVC, so you need a solvent that can be used on PVC and CPVC ... I don't think what you have lists CPVC.

    I may have a problem then. I already installed my 3 way Jandy valve and connected into the Pentair Filter which uses the same black CPVC fitting.

    I know I can't salvage the valve or the connector if I need to redo.

    Anyone else care to way in on whether I should proceed with my install or should I go back and redo with the proper cement?

    Thanks,
    Dave

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