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Thread: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

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    New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    I'm a longtime reader and lurker... and just recently registered. I appreciate all of the info. and knowledge that is shared on these boards.

    I believe we've finally decided to take the plunge and get a pool. We started the process late in the summer of 2012 and met with 6 local pool builders. We had hoped to have it installed in the fall of 2012, but due to some timing issues, we weren't able to get it done. So now we are looking at an April 2013 build and have narrowed it down to 2 builders. We met with one of the builders over the weekend and are scheduled to meet with the other tonight. We are in Northwest Ohio (Toledo)

    I wanted to get everyone's opinion on everything that we are looking to do and get some input on the options, etc:

    16'x38'x28' L Shaped Pool
    20 mil vinyl liner
    4 returns, 2 skimmers, 2 main drains

    3 LED lights
    Diving Board
    Solar Cover
    Reel
    Auto-pool cleaner
    Mesh winter cover
    All electrical work
    All gas work
    All cleaning supplies
    720 square feet of concrete (extra concrete will be $4/SF)
    Cantilever concrete coping
    3 sleeves/cups in the concrete for basketball and volleyball
    They'll reinstall my split rail fence, haul away excess dirt, fill the pool, close it the first year,

    Hayward Max-Flo VS pump
    250,000 BTU heater (Hayward H-250FDN)

    Now... I also have some decisions to make and would greatly appreciate everyone's input and suggestions:

    Walls - I have the option of the steel walls or polymer walls. The cost difference between the two is nominal. I'm torn on what to do... our soil is clay (if that helps) What do you suggest.. steel or polymer?

    Sanitization - We've been set on salt water since the fall; however, he told us that he's now offering the UV system by Delta. I've done some online research here and see many people saying that it's a waste. He indicated that the UV system would be supplemented with a cholorine system. Does that make a difference between your opinion on whether to do salt vs. UV? The salt system is PL-P4 Pro Logic System.

    Filter - Of the 6 builders we initially met with, it was 50/50 on sand or cartridge as what they recommend. I'm open to either and suggestions from everyone.... given the size of our pool and the mechanicals, I was hoping for some input from all of you. If we go with sand, it would be the Hayward S244T2.. if we go cartridge, it would be the Hayward C17502.

    Also.. is the 250,000 BTU heater sufficient?

    Thanks in advance for your help!

  2. Back To Top    #2
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Welcome to tfp, wahhutch9

    Do you have an estimate on the pool volume? The dimensions you gave do not give use enough to calculate it. That will help in us suggesting equipment sizing.

    Skip the UV, it is a waste of money for most typical outdoor residential pools. A Saltwater Chlorine Generator (swg) system is a much better choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by wahhutch9
    Also.. is the 250,000 BTU heater sufficient?
    Sounds too small but get us the volume of your pool or future description on the layout and depth so we can calculate.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Thanks for the quick response.... the bottom of the "L" will be 3' 6" ad the deep end 8'.

    It's about 26,000 gallons.

    Thanks again!

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Okay, 26000 gallons, thanks.

    For filters we would recommend as minimums: 390 sq. ft. cartridge, or 4.8 sq. ft sand, or 72 sq. ft DE. Both filters you mentioned are below our recommend sizes.

    For the swg, we would recommend sizing the cell 1.5 to 3 times the volume of the pool, so for yours pair the controller with at least a t-cell-15 generator.

    For the walls, hopefully others can comment on this

    For the heater I would guess you would want at least a 400K btu heater, those others will be able to speak more directly about this.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Thanks linen. For the cartridge filter and the swg... do you know which Hayward models you would recommend for the proposed pool?

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Sticking with Hayward, for the cartridge I would look at the Swim Clear C4030 (or larger, you really can't go too large with a cartridge). If you are still considering the a sand filter, the top mount S310T2 or the side mount S310S.

    Do you have a pump in mind?

    For the swg, as I mentioned above, the T-15 cell would be a good choice for size.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Pump was the Hayward Max-Flo VS

    Do you have a link for the SWG you recommend on the Hayward site?

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    If you are doing salt definitely polymer is the better choice. Personally I wouldn't do steel but that is just me, don't care what dirt or conditions are. linen I am not sold on UV but a recent article I read UV is possibly a good choice. Still looking into it .
    Over 30 years in the pool business
    We build vinyl, fiberglass, stainless steel pools
    Certified in Hydraulics

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Quote Originally Posted by swimcmp
    I am not sold on UV but a recent article I read UV is possibly a good choice. Still looking into it .
    @swimcmp...I would be interested in a link to the article.

    As I understand it, UV can kill and oxidize in the chamber, but you will still need a residual sanitizer in the pool to remove algae and bacteria that do not make their way into the UV chamber such as on walls, parts of pool with poor circulation, pool toys, etc. In addition, a residual in the pool is needed to protect against person to person transfer of disease.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    How is the pl-plus 40k cell swg unit? I'm not familiar with all of the swg options

    Thanks again!

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    The PL-PLUS (AquaPlus) system is identical to the ProLogic P4, but the PL-PLUS just adds the cell to the automation package. From what I have seen the price for the controller + cell is the same either route you go.

    Are you looking for automation (solar & heater control, actuators on valves, light control, remotes to do things from the house, etc) or just a SWG. If you want the latter, you should be looking at the AquaRite.

    Note the AquaPlus and the ProLogic automation controllers have the SWG control built in, but use the same cells as the AquaRite.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    I clearly still have a ton to learn. I would say I'm leaning towards the automation. Given the details I've given above about this specific pool, is the pl-plus 40 sufficient?

    Sounds like polymer might be the way to go based on the feedback so far.

    I'll also talk to him about the size of the heater and filtration system. I'm leaning towards the cartridge.


    swimcmp - I'd be interested in that UV article as well. While i dont know the exact terminology, the UV system that we have as an option had a chlorine system to supplement the UV system.

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....


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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    The real limitation to the p4 is the ability to only control 3 valves. Looking at you details, I do not see any valves (spa, water feature, solar) that would even need controlled.

    It almost seems like overkill as I do not see really much to automate. It does provide the subpanel, electronic timers, SWG and heater control and should integrate with the VS pump. But there may be some features you will not use.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    What size gas heater would I need?

    I posted in the "Under Construction" forum yesterday, but wanted to kind of go in to the individual forums to see if I could get more feedback.

    I'm looking at a 16'x38'x28' L Shaped vinyl Pool. About 26,000 gallons. We would have a solar cover.

    We are located in Northwest Ohio. Our yard gets sun all day up until 5 or 6 pm in the summer.

    We've met with a number of builders.. and all have told me a 250,000 BTU heater is what we would need. I just wanted to confirm that 250,000 would be sufficient. At this point, it'd be the Hayward H-250FDN

    Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance!

  16. Back To Top    #16
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: What size gas heater would I need?

    What is your plan as far as heating the pool? Is it always going to be heated? Or would you only turn on the heater when you want to swim (like on the weekends)?

    Any size will work, but will heat at a different rate. If you are just going to heat occasionally, then a larger heater will get it up to temperature faster. With either heater, the amount of gas used for a given temperature rise is the same. It could end up being the difference of heating up the pool to temp in 1 hour vs. 1.6 hours ... or maybe 2 hours vs. 3.2 hours ... you get the idea.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: What size gas heater would I need?

    Thank you. Is there a chart or guide out there that indicates how fast it takes 250,000 BTU's to increase the pool temperature by X degrees, etc.? Obviously, I know it would vary slightly pool size/shape/volume.

    Honestly, it'd probably be used sparingly during the summer.. and more in early May, Late September.. to extend our swimming time slightly.

    Thanks again

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: What size gas heater would I need?

    It takes 1 BTU to raise the temperature of 1 lb of water by 1 degree F.

    26000 gallons * 8.3 lbs/gallon = 215800 lbs
    To raise by 10 degrees you need 2,158,000 BTUs

    Assuming 85% efficiency on a 250 kBTU heater = 213 kBTU/hr
    It would take 10.1 hours to raise the pool by 10 degrees

    Assuming 85% efficiency on a 400 kBTU heater = 340 kBTU/hr
    It would take 6.3 hours to raise the pool by 10 degrees

    Note these calculation do not take into account any heat loss to the environment (radiation and evaporation), so it will take a little longer.

    Also note that 1 cubic foot ~= 1000 BTU, so it would take 2,158 CF of natural gas (if you want to estimate the cost).
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Topics merged. Please keep everything relating to one topic or project together in one place. JasonLion
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: New Pool Build in Ohio - some questions for you all....

    Sorry Jason. Was just hoping to get some additional responses by posting a specific heater question in the equipment forum.

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