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Thread: New Pumps?

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    New Pumps?

    My main pump and my booster pump went out on me; again. When I say the main pump went out, what was happening is the pump was having a hard time starting up and once it did it could only pull water if I isolated the suction side to the main drain. It also has been running very loud. Eventually it wouldn't even start. It used to pull OK from both skimmers and the main drain; however, I've always had trouble getting enough suction from the far skimmer even when I isolated the suction side to just the far skimmer. The booster pump went out earlier and I've been manually vacuuming for a while. It is completely seized. I took them to a local pump repair shop and the quoted repair cost is nearly the cost of completely new pumps. I have a couple of related questions so I'll pose them in order of priority. Note: I tried to include all the critical specs about my pool in my signature.

    1. What size and type of main pump do I need? Can I get by with a single speed to save on the initial cost or should I get a 2 speed? I think I currently have a single speed motor. I've read several posts about pump sizing; however, I'm just not sure where to begin and I'm afraid I'll make the calculation more complicated than it needs to be. Background: I replaced both pumps once before since I moved in about 6 years ago. The first time I replaced my main pump was upon the recommnedation of my pool service (which I don't use anymore). This was relatively soon after I moved in before I knew anything about pools. The pool regularly gets innundated with leaves because of all the trees surrounding it and the skimmer and pump baskets were not the correct size so the impeller got clogged and the pump ran dry a long time. I paid a bundle for the replacement plus labor and I don't really know what I got (completely new pump or just a new motor plus some new wet side parts?) What I really don't get is why the pump says 1.0 HP but when I look up the pump model number (SP3010X15AZ) it comes up as a 1.5 HP A.O. Smith motor. So, I'm not sure if I have the right size for my needs. Based on the specs for my pool, do I need a 1 HP or a 1.5 HP? I still need to pick up my old pumps from the shop (I told them not to fix them) so I can't check what the SF is on the old pump until I get it back; however, that doesn't change my question. In addition to the specs in my signature, one additional spec that may be helpful is my electricity cost which is $0.0972/kWh.

    2. What run time do I need? I realize the question/answer is based on my pump size (either my current pump or the new recommended config). Note: I'm trying to use a liquidator; however, it doesn't seem to deliver enough chlorine into the pool. Follow up question: With a 2 speed pump does the amount of chlorine delivered from the liquidator per turnover stay the same regardless of the flow rate? (i.e. if I run a 2 speed pump longer on a lower speed or a single speed pump a shorter amount of time to get the same turnover will the same amount of chlorine be delivered from my liquidator?) Second follow up question: If the liquidator cannot deliver enough chlorine for my size pool is the answer to add another liquidator to the system; and, if so, in series or in parallel? (I realize this isn't a pump question so I can move this to another thread if needed.)

    I think I'll stop there for now and see what recommendations y'all may have. When I get my pumps back and I have a clear diagnosis of what the problems are I'm going to post additional questions with more information and ask for help to determine why I'm having problems with my pumps and what I can do to remedy the situation.
    26K IG plaster pool, 2 Baker Hydro Skimmers (Model HS), 4 return jets (one plumbed with a PoolSkim surface cleaner), Hayward 1.5 6-way Multiport Valve (Sp710x-All), Polaris 380 w/ Polaris PB4-60Q Halcyon 3/4 HP Booster Pump, Pentair SuperFlo 1.5 HP (1.65 SFHP) Two Speed Pump (SF-N2-1-1/2A), Stainless Steel Hayward vertical DE 36ft2 filter (Duralon tank model DE3600), Purex CHD Pool Star light, 2 Intermatic mechanical time switches controlling the filter pump and booster pump, Hasa 8 gallon 3/8" Pool Liquidator Chlorinator, 1.5" return line with 3 x 1.5" suction lines, Austin, TX

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    The SP3010X15AZ is an up rated 1.5 HP pump. This is equivalent to a 1 HP full rated pump (SP3010). It isn't an overly large pump so you could just replace the motor if you wanted to. There are two speed replacements that could save you in energy costs.

    1. Sizing a pump is pretty easy if you don't have a spa, high volume water feature or in-floor cleaner. Simply get the smallest pump you can and preferably in a two speed. However, given your situation, I would recommend replacing just the motor with a two speed motor. You could downsize the impeller at the same time and drop the effective HP of the pump. That is an option and would save about 10% more in energy costs.

    2. The simplest answer is as little run time as possible. There is no set "rule". The number of turnovers is not really a good indicator as to the minimum run time required. I have a 20k pool and I can get away with 2 hours on high speed and 2 on low. But your experience could be different and your chlorinator could very well be the limiting factor. The best thing to do is experiment and see how low you can go. There are two priorities; Chlorination and Cleaning. The first is very important, the second not so much. Low speed will draw less from the liquidator so that could be an issue but I am surprised that you can't adjust it for a greater flow.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Mark handled the pump questions in his normal excellence, so I'll just comment on the LQ (liquidator) stuff.

    First I'd like to see a pic of the equipment pad if you can post one.

    The amount of chlorine that the LQ can deliver to the pool is directly related to the amount of suction head you have. If you have almost zero suction head at the LQ outlet site it won't be able to deliver any chlorine to the pool. From your description of the suction issues you're having I'd say that's your first problem with the LQ.

    At 26,000 gallons your pool is a little above the max size I'd recommend using an LQ on.

    Your pool requires about 108oz/day of 6% or 62oz/day of 10.5%, if you lose 2 ppm FC per day (which is about normal). Using 10.5% bleach would require the LQ to run 6 hours a day wide open in order to maintain your FC at the required level. However, if you can't get the LQ to flow wide open, you're going to have to run it longer. If you can only get 6% or 8% bleach then it's going to have to run even longer.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the LQ, but it has it's limitations.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: New Pumps?

    There are so many combinations of pump sizes and types; 1 hp full rated, 1.5 hp up rated, single speed, 2 speed, VS. I don't think I want to pay for a VS; however, I may want a 2 speed if the energy cost savings is worth it and if it will run quieter. Based on my specs what is the recommended pump size and type I should get? Note: my wife really wants the pumps to be as quiet as possible so I'm considering a Pentair Whisper Flo and a PB4-60Q booster pump.
    26K IG plaster pool, 2 Baker Hydro Skimmers (Model HS), 4 return jets (one plumbed with a PoolSkim surface cleaner), Hayward 1.5 6-way Multiport Valve (Sp710x-All), Polaris 380 w/ Polaris PB4-60Q Halcyon 3/4 HP Booster Pump, Pentair SuperFlo 1.5 HP (1.65 SFHP) Two Speed Pump (SF-N2-1-1/2A), Stainless Steel Hayward vertical DE 36ft2 filter (Duralon tank model DE3600), Purex CHD Pool Star light, 2 Intermatic mechanical time switches controlling the filter pump and booster pump, Hasa 8 gallon 3/8" Pool Liquidator Chlorinator, 1.5" return line with 3 x 1.5" suction lines, Austin, TX

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    The quietest pumps are the variable speed models. Then the 2-speeds are next and finally the single speeds. A 1 hp full rated 2-speed would work fine for your pool and the Whisperflo is a good unit.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: New Pumps?

    I checked Pool Supply World. The 1 HP full rated costs $81 more than the 1.5 HP Up rated. Aren't these about equivalent? Any reason I shouldn't get the cheaper one?
    Pentair WFDS-26 WhisperFlo Up-Rated Dual Speed Energy Efficient 1-1/2HP Pool Pump, 230V (SKU #: 012518) = $585.99
    Pentair WFDS-4 WhisperFlo Full Rated Dual Speed Energy Efficient 1HP Pool Pump, 230V (SKU #: 011486) = $667.99
    26K IG plaster pool, 2 Baker Hydro Skimmers (Model HS), 4 return jets (one plumbed with a PoolSkim surface cleaner), Hayward 1.5 6-way Multiport Valve (Sp710x-All), Polaris 380 w/ Polaris PB4-60Q Halcyon 3/4 HP Booster Pump, Pentair SuperFlo 1.5 HP (1.65 SFHP) Two Speed Pump (SF-N2-1-1/2A), Stainless Steel Hayward vertical DE 36ft2 filter (Duralon tank model DE3600), Purex CHD Pool Star light, 2 Intermatic mechanical time switches controlling the filter pump and booster pump, Hasa 8 gallon 3/8" Pool Liquidator Chlorinator, 1.5" return line with 3 x 1.5" suction lines, Austin, TX

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by DIYconvert
    I checked Pool Supply World. The 1 HP full rated costs $81 more than the 1.5 HP Up rated. Aren't these about equivalent? Any reason I shouldn't get the cheaper one?
    Pentair WFDS-26 WhisperFlo Up-Rated Dual Speed Energy Efficient 1-1/2HP Pool Pump, 230V (SKU #: 012518) = $585.99
    Pentair WFDS-4 WhisperFlo Full Rated Dual Speed Energy Efficient 1HP Pool Pump, 230V (SKU #: 011486) = $667.99
    According to Pentair's site, those pumps are equivalent in all but name.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Just a marketing gimmick ... they are identical pumps/motors with a different sticker on the motor.

    I would actually think you could get away with even a smaller pump ... like the SuperFlo (SF-N2-1A) 2-speed that I have. Costs less up front and uses less electricity ... especially since you only have a single 1.5" return pipe.

    And I'd be willing to bet Mark would back me up on that

    EDIT: BTW, with my pump on low, you can not hear it running ... it would be even quieter if I actually tried to bolt it down, but my pad is made of pavers.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    I would actually think you could get away with even a smaller pump ... like the SuperFlo (SF-N2-1A) 2-speed that I have. Costs less up front and uses less electricity ... especially since you only have a single 1.5" return pipe.
    Good call jbliz! Looks like that would save some good cash and current!
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    An even cheaper option that could save yourself a few hundred bucks is to just replace your current motor with a two speed motor. Plus, you don't have to change any plumbing as you would with a new pump.

    As for noise, that is usually caused by one of two things:

    Bad motor bearings - Can be fixed with a new motor

    High flow rates - Can be fixed by running on low speed of a two speed pump.

    Note that any pump can be loud, including a VS or Whisperflo, when run at high flow rates.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  11. Back To Top    #11
    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    An even cheaper option that could save yourself a few hundred bucks is to just replace your current motor with a two speed motor. Plus, you don't have to change any plumbing as you would with a new pump.
    Also a good point mas

    The op did state:
    Quote Originally Posted by DIYconvert
    I took them to a local pump repair shop and the quoted repair cost is nearly the cost of completely new pumps.
    ..but maybe another shop should be asked since it seems that a motor replacement should be less then the new pump...
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    Maybe I was confused by the DIYconvert handle but replacing a motor is not that hard to do. In fact I think it is easier than buying a new pump and having to replumb.

    You can get STS1152R for around $300 plus another $25 for the seal kit.

    http://electricmotorwarehouse.com/56Jframe.htm

    http://www.amazon.com/Hayward-Quick-Pum ... s=SPXHKIT2
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: New Pumps?

    Thanks for all the replies. I like jbiz's suggestion. I'm going to go with that pump. It costs about 200 more than replacing my motor; however, I would also need to replace the diffuser and get a new seal kit. Also, I do need to replumb everything because I had to cut my pump out to take it to the shop. It didn't have union joints. The new pump comes with union joints so I will save on that too. Overall, I think the level of effort vs. cost vs. value is to get a new pump. I like to be a DIY'er (I've repaired almost every part in my pool system); however, I currently don't have much free time and the pool is starting to get green so I need to go with the quickest solution.
    26K IG plaster pool, 2 Baker Hydro Skimmers (Model HS), 4 return jets (one plumbed with a PoolSkim surface cleaner), Hayward 1.5 6-way Multiport Valve (Sp710x-All), Polaris 380 w/ Polaris PB4-60Q Halcyon 3/4 HP Booster Pump, Pentair SuperFlo 1.5 HP (1.65 SFHP) Two Speed Pump (SF-N2-1-1/2A), Stainless Steel Hayward vertical DE 36ft2 filter (Duralon tank model DE3600), Purex CHD Pool Star light, 2 Intermatic mechanical time switches controlling the filter pump and booster pump, Hasa 8 gallon 3/8" Pool Liquidator Chlorinator, 1.5" return line with 3 x 1.5" suction lines, Austin, TX

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: New Pumps?

    With the additional information you supplied, a new pump makes a lot of sense and that superflo is a good price. What voltage?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: New Pumps?

    FYI, check out this site for pumps and a ton of other things at great prices compared to alot of other online places.I just placed an order and I was in the same exact situation as your faced with, went with the 1HP Superflo 2speed 230V that Jason mentioned above from my original 1.5 HP dinosaur that was ready to be replaced....

    http://www.sunplay.com/Pentair-Super...2-p/340042.htm
    24,000 Gallon Vinyl Grecian IG,Triton2 Sand Filter / Pentair Super Flo 1 HP Dual Speed Pump ,
    Stenner Peristaltic Pump Injection w/15 gal drum,Stubbed up supply/return for future solar panels :)
    TF100 Rocks !! Pool School....

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