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Thread: first results are in!

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    first results are in!

    used my Taylor K-2006 kit for the first time today. I got most of the leaves vacuumed out of the pool, water is cloudy but not terrible, considering. Dumped in 2 gallons of 10% bleach as a starting guess. Allowed it to mix in, then tested

    <nervously opens the envelope...>

    Free chlorine: 10 ppm
    Combined Chlorine: 1 ppm
    pH: 7.8, added one drop of acid reagent, it went down to 7.4
    Total Alkalinity: 130 ppm @ calcium carbonate
    Calcium Hardness: 180 ppm calcium hardness @ calcium carbonate
    Cyanuric Acid: indeterminate (<30 ppm?) The directions indicated the mixture should be cloudy, but it was crystal clear. I was able to see the black dot all the way to the top of the column.

    ok, I'm ready to go buy some chemicals - tell me what to buy!
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: first results are in!

    The main thing is that you need to bring your CYA level up to the 30 to 50 range. Without CYA you will lose chlorine very quickly on any sunny day.

    Keep FC at shock level until the water is clear and CC is 0.5 or lower.

    You will also need to lower the PH fairly soon, but not just yet. PH at 7.8 is alright, but if it goes higher you will want to lower it.

    Longer term you want to bring the CH level up to perhaps 300, but wait till the water is fully cleaned up before working on that.
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    Re: first results are in!

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    The main thing is that you need to bring your CYA level up to the 30 to 50 range. Without CYA you will lose chlorine very quickly on any sunny day.

    Keep FC at shock level until the water is clear and CC is 0.5 or lower.

    You will also need to lower the PH fairly soon, but not just yet. PH at 7.8 is alright, but if it goes higher you will want to lower it.

    Longer term you want to bring the CH level up to perhaps 300, but wait till the water is fully cleaned up before working on that.

    so will keeping FC @ shock level (which is how many ppm?) increase the CYA on its own, or do I need to add something else? How many gallons of 8% bleach should I need for a 22000 gallon pool?

    surprised that my CH would be low since we have such naturally hard tap water. The scale buildup around the tile line is grotesque!
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    Use The Pool Calculator to figure your dosages and read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School to get a handle on how to adjust your parameters and why. The FC/CYA chart in Pool School will give you the shock level you need.

    You should assume you have zero CYA but don't overdose.
    Dave S.
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    Re: first results are in!

    ok, I have read up and understand I need to stabilize and add chlorine. At this early stage would it make sense to start with dichlor/triclor tabs, rather than separate CYA stabilizer and liquid bleach?

    Since the tabs contain both the stabilizer and chlorine I need, would it be easier and more controllable than trying to add the two elements separately?

    the spreadsheet tells me I need 115 oz of stabilizer, but not how many trichlor tabs that equates to
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    It is more controlled to use the separate products as then you do not have to account for the effects on FC and CYA and pH all at the same time.

    If you are aware of what the tri / di chlor is going to do to your pool, then you may be fine doing so.

    Use the "Effects of Chemicals" at the bottom of the calculator and see how many ounces of trichlor give you the needed CYA rise. Then confirm whether your tablets are 6, 7, or 8 oz and then make sure you do not use too many. This is the slow way to add the CYA and thus you will likely loose more FC than if you added the CYA separately. Also, I would not be surprised if the use of tablets ended up costing more.
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    Re: first results are in!

    so you recommend adding 115 oz (7 lb) of this stabilizer first, then waiting a week to dissolve, then adding bleach to get FC back up?
    http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool-Ch ... 12302.html
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    alternatively, 2 gallons of this stuff, since it dissolves instantly?

    http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool-Ch ... 12306.html
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: first results are in!

    No, you need to maintain FC while it is dissolving. Then assume it is fully active when dissolved and raise the FC level to the new recommended level. Then confirm the CYA level in a week.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: first results are in!

    ok, after another couple cycles of adjustments, here are my latest #'s

    FC 1.5 ppm
    CC 0.0 ppm
    pH 7.4
    TA 125 ppm
    CH 200 ppm
    CYA 60

    I am skeptical of the CYA number, though I tried to be careful with the test. I had it up to 25 ppm (my # confirmed by Leslie's). With a target of 40, I added ~2/3 of a gallon of instant liquid conditioner. SO in total, for a 25k pool, I have added 2.66 gal instant conditioner, which should not be nearly enough to give me 60 ppm. The label says 1 gallon per 10k gallons should give 35 ppm

    So I plan to wait a couple days and repeat the CYA test, and have Leslie's confirm my #

    Other than that, anything else I need to be doing? Still waiting on the water to warm up, so no bathers yet.
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    Your FC level is too low. Even if CYA is 30, you should still be maintaining an FC level of at least 2. CH is also a little low.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: first results are in!

    yeah, I've been trail-and-erroring with how often I need to add chlorine to maintain 2-3 ppm. Looks like I went too long this time.
    If my CYA is 30 and I have full AZ sun on my pool, how often would you expect I need to top up the chlorine level?

    One thing that may have skewed the test - I had just brushed a bunch of loose stuff off the walls, so the water may have been cloudier than usual, which may have made the black dot disappear sooner
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    Quote Originally Posted by twd000
    yeah, I've been trail-and-erroring with how often I need to add chlorine to maintain 2-3 ppm. Looks like I went too long this time.
    If my CYA is 30 and I have full AZ sun on my pool, how often would you expect I need to top up the chlorine level?
    You'll lose approximately 2 ppm/day. The only way to know for sure is trial and error. And as the water warms, the sun gets more intense, and people start using it, the demand will go up. Also note that you lose a percentage to sunlight, not a fixed amount. So Adding 3 days worth at once may not work; it will probably only last 2. In time, you'll learn your pool's personality, and will know pretty close how much you use every day. And then you can get lazy and skip testing a day now and then and just dump in the approximate amount.
    One thing that may have skewed the test - I had just brushed a bunch of loose stuff off the walls, so the water may have been cloudier than usual, which may have made the black dot disappear sooner
    Dim light will also do that.

    Take a reading, pour the view sample back in the mixing bottle, and shake it again, then repeat it until you get the same reading 3X. It may take 10 to do that initially. Even after a couple years of practice, and checking myself with the 50ppm standard solution, I still vary by about 10 ppm between the lowest and the highest readings.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: first results are in!

    At 30ppm, you may be losing about 50% of your FC with our sun. That is what I have been seeing the last few weeks. You will lose less raising up closer to 50ppm.

    Likely need to be adding FC every day.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
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    Re: first results are in!

    wow -that's a lot of hands-on attention to keep the FC up. I was hoping I could do it less frequently. If I switched to using pucks in a floater rather than liquid bleach, would I be able to go significantly longer between applications?

    I guess this is why there is a forum on automated chlorine-injection systems?
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    Quote Originally Posted by twd000
    wow -that's a lot of hands-on attention to keep the FC up. I was hoping I could do it less frequently. If I switched to using pucks in a floater rather than liquid bleach, would I be able to go significantly longer between applications?
    Sure. And the stabilizer level will climb to astronomical levels, which will render the FC useless, which will then cause you to start buying "shock powder" - which comes with its own set of problems - to clear up the cloudy and /or green water. And ultimately, the pool store (or this forum) will advise you that the best solution is to drain it all and start over. Check out the Testimonials.

    It's like, two or three minutes a day! You'll be out there anyway, hopefully, using the pool every day!

    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: first results are in!

    The pucks in a floater will be adding CYA with the FC ... eventually they will not maintain a high enough FC level relative to the rising CYA level. So you will add more pucks, maybe a 2nd floater. It will not help. Your pool will turn green. You will have to drain/replace enough water to lower the CYA. And then you will have to go through the shock process.

    So, is it easier to spend < 5 minutes/day adding bleach or the time and expense of what I described above?

    In reality, using bleach is actually cheaper than using the pucks when you look at the $/ppm of FC they add.

    The liquid injection systems and SWGs add the convenience of adding the FC for you every day, but you are still required to be testing to be sure all chemicals stay in the correct range. And hauling in bleach bottles in the case of the injection systems.
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    Re: first results are in!

    your description sounds a lot like my dad's method on his pool (with the exception of the algae). Uses the pucks all week, then shocks once a week religiously, which is probably the only thing keeping the algae at bay. Don't know if he has ever measured CYA, though he gets a lot of free dilution with rainwater.

    Once I get the bleach method dialed in, it shouldn't be too much of a burden, especially with a solar cover to retain the chemicals
    25K gal IG plaster pool w/ spillover jacuzzi, 12 Gulf Solar coils (leaking/currently bypassed), ancient Raypak propane heater (rusted/currently bypassed), Pentair 001018 VS pump, 4.9 sq ft Triton II sand filter, Taylor K-2006 FAS-DPD kit

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    Re: first results are in!

    Less than 5 min a day. After a couple weeks of truly understanding the pool and following BBB religiously, I went down to 5 min every other day. Plus I save a ton of time by not driving to the pool store every other week. And don't even get me started about the money that no longer goes to the pool store.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: first results are in!

    Depending on what "shock" your dad is using, it could be adding even more CYA (dichlor) or it is adding calcium which can also be bad (cal-hypo). Or if it is liquid, then it is just raising the FC ... possibly high enough. There is a difference between a clear pool and a safe pool.

    Using our methods, you should never have to "shock" the pool.

    Depending on your location, rain levels, length of season, and whether you partial/full drain over the winter, it is possible to use the tablets during the season and then be closing down before the CYA gets out of hand. Although if you watch the forums, we generally see a lot of "What happened my pool turned green?!?!?" posts in Aug/Sept toward the end of their season.
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