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Thread: Dialing in System

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    cramar's Avatar
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    Dialing in System

    I put in some solar heating panels last summer, instead of tying back into the return I simply discharged into the pool as the piping was going right by it anyways. I was just easier and everything worked fine last year, no problems.

    To make a very long complicated story short, I spent last summer doing alot of fidgeting with the final discharge angle and size of fitting.
    The reason, one night after testing the pool I was watching the water and the debris on top and after awhile I started noticing that the speed of water rotation was such that some of the debris that I felt should be going into the skimmer - wasnt.
    So this started a bunch of changes to final fitting sizes and angles and I was never really satisfied with the final performance.

    Not sure what to ask but I guess I'm wondering how I can determine if the skimmer is effectively drawing in debris, should debris within a certain distance of the skimmer be sucked in, if so what is that general distance?

    In my signature, if you go to the 6th last picture you can see the discharge pipe from the solar unit.
    20' X 54" Sharkline Matrix Resin AGP, 9400 Gallons, Sta-Rite 1 HP Dynamo Pump, 150 lb Pentair Sand Filter, Gorilla Pad,
    Foam Cove, Taylor K-2006 kit, BBB method, 8'X20' Fafco Sunsaver Hard Plumb, DIY Fountain, Margarittaville Fiji


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    Re: Dialing in System

    Your above ground pump/filter set up is not meant to be pulling/pushing water through all of that plumbing. Your total dynamic head has been greatly reduced. I think the only way to effectively help your situation...without un-doing all your hard work on your system...is to get a bigger pump. But make sure it isn't oversized for your filter.
    24' round above ground, 13500 gallons, vinyl liner, 18" Sand Filter

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    To me it does not sound like a pump size issue (solar really does not add that much head once it is primed).

    But more like you do not like the water flow pattern with the solar on vs. with it off correct?

    I think for round pools, you may want the return pointing toward the skimmer, so you get 2 symmetric flow patterns which should move the debris toward the skimmer ... although AG pool owners may have better information to offer.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Dialing in System

    It's not just the solar but all of the other plumbing involved as well.
    24' round above ground, 13500 gallons, vinyl liner, 18" Sand Filter

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    Hmmm ... maybe I misread, sounded like it was only an issue with the solar discharge which was separate than the normal return. Guess I should look at the pictures to see ...

    EDIT: So, I do see that the solar return is separate from the normal return, as I thought. And I see that it is not really easy to have the returns pointed at the skimmer. I guess I am still not clear if your skimming problem is only while running solar or also when not running solar. With the return next to the skimmer, I think the only option is to create a whirlpool movement, but some stuff may end up stuck in the middle.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    cramar's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    Jbizzle, your exactly correct, I just don't like the water flow pattern when solar is on.

    I have a few variables now that I didn't have before the solar panels (before all I did was dial in the eyeball):
    - I can throttle the amount of water to the panels, but I prefer to run nearly full out
    - I can discharge via a 1 1/2" fitting at a certain angle
    - I can discharge via a 1" fitting at a certain angle

    I have a few various fittings left over from the solar project so I decided to focus on the discharge pattern and use those spare fittings.

    This is really a minor thing, this is me taking a break one evening, having a beer and just watching the rotation of the water and watching what is/isn't getting pulled into the skimmer based on a given solar output setup. This is not something that requries a new pump, the pump runs within recommended specs when solar is on and I've had converstations with others here regarding head and such prior to setting up the solar.

    I'm just wondering if there is a general effective reach for the skimmer draw on an AGP, should things within 1' generally pull in, within 2', etc.
    20' X 54" Sharkline Matrix Resin AGP, 9400 Gallons, Sta-Rite 1 HP Dynamo Pump, 150 lb Pentair Sand Filter, Gorilla Pad,
    Foam Cove, Taylor K-2006 kit, BBB method, 8'X20' Fafco Sunsaver Hard Plumb, DIY Fountain, Margarittaville Fiji


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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    I usually get things about 8" from the skimmer drawn into it. A lot if times the water is moving by the skimmer so fast that things further away than that will start toward the skimmer but will bypass the mouth before they get drawn in.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Dialing in System

    Your setup looks good to me...just wanted the check though, your panels look to be the type with the "diverting disk" in the headers with the blue labeling (sungrabbers?). If they have the disks, did you remove them?

    A couple of thoughts...
    1. I can't tell for sure, but it does not look like you throttle down the pvc at the output of the solar return? Your output velocity might not be very high, since you do not throttle down the cross sectional area at the return as is done with you eyeball. The down side to eyeballs, etc. is that increase the head loss. The upsides are higher velocity, so potential greater depth penetration of moving water and potentially better circular flow.

    2. A skimmer aid might help, I think I have seen one here somewhere where someone posted a arm that is attached to skimmer opening and extends into the pool to help divert surface stuff into the skimmer?

    3. Do you have a weir door on you skimmer?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Dialing in System

    My panels do have the diverting disc, I didn't remove but they are in the open position.

    I do have a weir door on the skimmer.

    Guess I'll just keep monkeying with it until I'm happy, my plan was to try a 22.5 degree elbow. Like I said, it's a somewhat trivial thing but at this point in my build 99% of things are done, so I'm onto these sorts of minor things.

    One thing I wish I had done in my construction is a bottom drain, perhaps the next pool.

    THanks.
    20' X 54" Sharkline Matrix Resin AGP, 9400 Gallons, Sta-Rite 1 HP Dynamo Pump, 150 lb Pentair Sand Filter, Gorilla Pad,
    Foam Cove, Taylor K-2006 kit, BBB method, 8'X20' Fafco Sunsaver Hard Plumb, DIY Fountain, Margarittaville Fiji


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    Re: Dialing in System

    Quote Originally Posted by cramar
    My panels do have the diverting disc, I didn't remove but they are in the open position.
    Oops, i missed that yours has valves (mine has a hidden plastic disk...no valves), so you are good there.

    I still might try and speed up the water velocity coming out of the pvc, you could even put a real eyeball fitting on it...but I would probable just try something on it temporarily to reduce the cross-sectional area and see if it makes a difference. I bet if you removed you eyeball on you normal (non solar) return (but were still able to direct the flow) you would also get poorer skimming/flow pattern.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    I wrote a long dissertation on what I've seen and tried in my pool and JB posted his post before I got done so I threw it all away. The crux of it is that a bottom drain would be the best thing you could do to keep the pool clean.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Dialing in System

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    The crux of it is that a bottom drain would be the best thing you could do to keep the pool clean.
    After a couple of seasons with my pool, I completely agree.
    20' X 54" Sharkline Matrix Resin AGP, 9400 Gallons, Sta-Rite 1 HP Dynamo Pump, 150 lb Pentair Sand Filter, Gorilla Pad,
    Foam Cove, Taylor K-2006 kit, BBB method, 8'X20' Fafco Sunsaver Hard Plumb, DIY Fountain, Margarittaville Fiji


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    Re: Dialing in System

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    The crux of it is that a bottom drain would be the best thing you could do to keep the pool clean.
    Why is that? A typical bottom drain has a smaller "reach" than a skimmer. Or did you mean bottom return?
    Mark
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    On round pools the debris tends to collect in the center of the pool on the bottom. You'd think it'd collect along the wall due to centrifugal force (at least I did) but it doesn't, it collects just off center in a neat pile for the most part.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
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    Re: Dialing in System

    Probably has to do with the slope of the floor. Aren't AG pools deepest in the center?

    Are the drain covers any different than a IG? I never found IG MDs to be much good at anything because the covers are designed for minimal suction and the holes are so small they don't allow much in the way of debris to pass except for dirt.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    My floor is completely flat, but it still collects in the center. I'd thought about the cover stopping the leaves but haven't investigated if they make different styles of covers.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    cramar's Avatar
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    Re: Dialing in System

    AGP bottoms can be dished but most people just do flat bottom.

    It's just the rotation of the water, the water flow migrates most of the debris to the middle in a nice little pile that's relatively easy to pull out, I know if I had a bottom drain that most of it would get sucked down, my only concern would be stepping on the drain.
    Personally most of my debris is from lawn clippings from taking the solar blanket off the pool onto the ground, drives me crazy, when my blanket dies I'm going to look at a roller.
    20' X 54" Sharkline Matrix Resin AGP, 9400 Gallons, Sta-Rite 1 HP Dynamo Pump, 150 lb Pentair Sand Filter, Gorilla Pad,
    Foam Cove, Taylor K-2006 kit, BBB method, 8'X20' Fafco Sunsaver Hard Plumb, DIY Fountain, Margarittaville Fiji


    My Build: one-man-one-pool-and-one-deck-agp-pics-t37172.html
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