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Thread: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to supplement

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    In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to supplement

    First post -
    I'm still narrowing down pool builders in Austin (will take recs!) and have designed my own pool. My yard is small and with utility easements, there's really only one place that makes sense and it's gonna be small (8500 gal) plus a decent sized spa.
    I'm going with a VS Pentair pump and want to reduce, not eliminate, the amount of chlorine used. I've decided on lueder stone (limestone) for coping and I really don't want to mess with a SWCG.

    My top PB is offering up EcoSmarte CO2 and Ionic systems OR a Spectra Light UV system.
    He's installed both, but doesn't seem to be too excited about either.

    Given the small size of my pool, I was thinking even if a system didn't fully deliver on it's marketing materials, but at least was designed with the right science behind it, I could still be in a good position to significantly reduce my chlorine tabs.

    I was leaning towards the Nature2 Fusion inground as reviews outside of this site a fairly favorable, but man, this seems to be a very pro-SWCG crowd and rips on any N2 products. What's the next best option for me?

    Thanks!
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    I suggest avoiding N2 and UV systems. Neither one adds anything significant and the N2 has some mild risks. The big advantage in UV systems is for commercial pools with high bather load. UV is very good at oxidation, which is needed when lots of people are swimming. But the amount of chlorine required for proper sanitation is more than enough to provide oxidation for a standard residential pool, leaving little for the UV to do.

    If you prefer to avoid a SWG, perhaps you might want to consider a peristaltic pump for feeding bleach/liquid chlorine into the pool. Uniform and consistent chlorine dosing saves effort and greatly reduces the odds of something going wrong.

    Chlorine tablets contain both chlorine and CYA, and they also lower the PH. That means your CYA level is constantly going up, and in most cases it will eventually get high enough to start causing some very significant problems. The constantly lowered PH can also be a problem if you aren't consistent about raising the PH back up in some other way. Liquid chlorine doesn't have either of these problems, allowing uniform and controlled PH and CYA levels with little effort. Consistent levels are the key to getting good results.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Thanks. This is the first I'm hearing of such a solution. I'll do some research. Would you say this might fall under the category of a "hack" or something a standard PB wouldn't be willing to do?
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by dperque
    I really don't want to mess with a SWCG.
    Can I ask why? Probably the easiest thing I have ever dealt with.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Well, my house is probably 80% limestone and the patio in the back yard is also limestone which is basically forcing my hand in doing a sort of stone coping to keep things uniform. I don't want to have to think about washing off stone after a day of splashing and from what I'm hearing, I may see some chipping over time.
    I haven't done a lot of research on my other options, but I've seen a few concrete jobs and haven't been impressed. I really like the look of a Lueder Stone and because there will be no decking (only coping visible), I feel the stone looks cleaner and more natural.
    make sense?
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Here's what a peristaltic pump setup looks like: new-stenner-convert-t54737.html

    The only thing I would change possibly is I would wave gone with the PS-8 instead of the PS-4 automation so that i could control it directly from the automation box. That being said, however you automate the peristaltic pump, operation has been as automatic as a SWG and will end up costing less.

    I definitely wouldn't consider this method a hack, it's identical to a tablet feeder except with liquid chlorine and less side-effects.

    Paul
    15,000 gallon colored plaster in-ground with spa-spillover
    Hayward Tristar 2-speed 1.5hp main, Hayward Tristar 1 speed 1hp water feature
    Hayward Cartridge Filter C4030 & Tiger Shark
    Hayward ProLogic Automation & Hayward 400k BTU Heater
    Stenner 45MPHP10 Peristaltic Pump

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Liquid Chlorine delivery systems are not as turn-key as SWCG's from the pool builder perspective in residential settings as far as I can see. The liquidator is the only thing I know of that is turn-key and sized right for residential that I know of - and liquidators can be troublesome compared with peristaltic systems. I'm not aware of any peristaltic systems that are commercially marketed for residential sized pools that are packaged in a neat commercial way - which could just be ignorance on my part.

    Remember that any liquid delivery system will require that you source some form of liquid chlorine and handle the process of filling up the container from time to time. Not a bad solution - but not as simple as an SWCG in that respect. Your caution with a limestone edge is understood, sorry there isn't a simple option.

    With respect to UV, the only use of this in residential that seems justified is for indoor pools which don't get UV exposure, the lack of which can slow down the breakdown of CC's.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    You've basically sold me on the Liquidator (or someone has) and as my pool is under 10K gallons, I think it will work well for me. If I were approaching 25K gal, I would look into a peristaltic system.

    This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm under the assumption this eliminates the need for the tablet feeder. So I'd just tell my PB to drop that (Pentair Rainbow 300) and add the Liquidator?
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    You should read some of the liquidator threads in these forums more carefully, as there are some problems you should be aware of. I went through the same process that you are currently, and after gathering all of the information and experiences of others decided to go peristaltic for a reason.

    The tablet feeder is inexpensive and in my opinion should be kept. You can use it to periodically raise CYA, or as a backup should your liquidator fail etc.
    15,000 gallon colored plaster in-ground with spa-spillover
    Hayward Tristar 2-speed 1.5hp main, Hayward Tristar 1 speed 1hp water feature
    Hayward Cartridge Filter C4030 & Tiger Shark
    Hayward ProLogic Automation & Hayward 400k BTU Heater
    Stenner 45MPHP10 Peristaltic Pump

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by houstonTex
    You should read some of the liquidator threads in these forums more carefully, as there are some problems you should be aware of. I went through the same process that you are currently, and after gathering all of the information and experiences of others decided to go peristaltic for a reason.

    The tablet feeder is inexpensive and in my opinion should be kept. You can use it to periodically raise CYA, or as a backup should your liquidator fail etc.
    Agreed. I was sold on the Liquidator in the begining but after looking into it I'm on the fence still. There are some issues with the quality of the valves supplied ($ to replace) and also with buildup of deposits inside the unit that make it a bit harder to maintain for some people (Time and effort). Some people have good luck with the standard model and never have problems. But things like changing your runtime cycle, filter pressure changes, using a booster pump cleaner periodically all change the amount of chlorine that flows through the system and requires adjustment. The peristaltic pump is a little more money but seems to have a more reliable and trouble free history with users here.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    ok. I'll look into the peristaltic pump as well. In my situation, I'll be running the VS pump 24/7 likely and will have no booster pump for the spa so things will be relatively static. I'm also considering an automatic cover instead of a fence (we have 2 little ones) so I have to assume the cover will also help in stabilizing things (limit evaporation and UV exposure) and keep organic materials out of the water.

    Should my PB be prepared to talk about peristaltic pumps? and if he's never installed them, would you regard that as a "red flag"?
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    I had a Liquidator. If you get the upgrade, the valves are fine. If the valves give you trouble, they will replace them for free. In regards to deposits, this happened with mine when my CH was high and my TA was off. Getting TA into check and adding borates completely solved this problem for me.

    The items you mention such as changing runtime, etc. changing your chlorine output also apply to a SWCG system.

    The reason I removed my LQ and went SWCG is due to the size of my pool and my amount of travel. It did not hold enough chlorine for me to be gone for over a week at a time, therefore wasn't that much of a help to me. If I had a smaller pool, it would have been just fine. I also got tired of transporting chlorine bottles. LQ or not, I still had to move the same number of bottles.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    I see that you mention a VS pump. If you run it on low most of the time you most likely won't have enough suction head to make the LQ (liquidator) work. It requires a little bit of suction head to operate correctly.

    I wouldn't worry if your PB has never installed an injection pump before. It's very simple and straight forward.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Some metrics on how much chlorine / bleach my pool uses (15kgal coastal Texas):

    Fall/Winter
    10gpd Stenner run approx 1hr/day = @.41gal per day

    With the 15gal Stenner tank that gives me about 36days of runtime before refilling. This will be slightly shorter in the summer... closer to 4 weeks.

    I keep logs in a spreadsheet if you're curious. Document is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... CNkE#gid=0 You can likely see that I used to check the pool every day when manually adding chlorine, but now I think I average every 3-4 days...the pump keeps the chlorine pretty well balanced. I'd feel pretty comfortable leaving for a week or two if someone checked the pH for me a couple times.

    Paul
    15,000 gallon colored plaster in-ground with spa-spillover
    Hayward Tristar 2-speed 1.5hp main, Hayward Tristar 1 speed 1hp water feature
    Hayward Cartridge Filter C4030 & Tiger Shark
    Hayward ProLogic Automation & Hayward 400k BTU Heater
    Stenner 45MPHP10 Peristaltic Pump

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Stenner makes a system with a pump mounted on a container. About as turn key as you can get.
    7,500 gal, IG pool, L shape 22' x 15', 1.5 hp pump, cartridge filter, AquaPlus SWG/Controller, Pebble-Tec liner.

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by dperque
    Thanks. This is the first I'm hearing of such a solution. I'll do some research. Would you say this might fall under the category of a "hack" or something a standard PB wouldn't be willing to do?
    Id say a peristaltic pump is a hack but is very easy to do. Im in austin you are welcome to come by and look at my install

    I dont have firsthand knowledge of nature and UV systems, but from what I have read they dont add anything. The problem is that most literature talks about chlorine levels in the 2ppm range. But based on your cyanuric acid levels you will keep Chlorine in the 4-6ppm range.

    You may be thinking of chlorine as a chemical that makes the pool smell bad and when you get out you smell, but those are actually chloramines, the product of chlorine reacting with organics. If your pool smells like "chlorine" it is actually because you dont have enough chlorine to oxidize the chloramines. If your eyes are irritated it is usually an unbalanced pH.

    In austin summers you need a Cyanuric acid level of 40-50 to keep your chlorine from burning off to quickly. As a result you will need 4-6ppm of chlorine. However if you keep enough chlorine in your pool it wont smell. If you keep the pH balanced, it wont irritate your eyes. Because it hardly rains here and because the swim season is so long, tabs will very quicky turn your pool green (or you will have to drain your pool in violation of the city drought rules).
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    Quote Originally Posted by dperque
    I really don't want to mess with a SWCG.
    Can I ask why? Probably the easiest thing I have ever dealt with.
    saltwater pool will dissolve natural stone coping very quickly in austin.
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by dperque
    You've basically sold me on the Liquidator (or someone has) and as my pool is under 10K gallons, I think it will work well for me. If I were approaching 25K gal, I would look into a peristaltic system.

    This may seem like a dumb question, but I'm under the assumption this eliminates the need for the tablet feeder. So I'd just tell my PB to drop that (Pentair Rainbow 300) and add the Liquidator?
    I decided against the liquidator. There are all sorts of maintenance headaches that can crop up with them. Plus they virtually cost as much as the peristaltic pump.
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Quote Originally Posted by houstonTex
    Some metrics on how much chlorine / bleach my pool uses (15kgal coastal Texas):

    Fall/Winter
    10gpd Stenner run approx 1hr/day = @.41gal per day

    With the 15gal Stenner tank that gives me about 36days of runtime before refilling. This will be slightly shorter in the summer... closer to 4 weeks.

    I keep logs in a spreadsheet if you're curious. Document is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... CNkE#gid=0 You can likely see that I used to check the pool every day when manually adding chlorine, but now I think I average every 3-4 days...the pump keeps the chlorine pretty well balanced. I'd feel pretty comfortable leaving for a week or two if someone checked the pH for me a couple times.

    Paul
    I have almost the same size pool and run about the same # of gallons per day. I run about 1.5 hours per day at 10gpd. I have a tendency to not fill the tank all the way to the top and fill it before it gets empty so I only get about 2 weeks of runtime out of mine. Since they moved to the higher concentration bleach this summer in stores I think I might be able to drop to an hour and get the longer run time but I didnt get things fully adjusted for the new bleach concentration.

    I go to costco and get 4 boxes of chlorine
    17,800 gallon, IG pool, 595 sq feet (17x35x4.5 avg rectangle), Hayward 525 cartridge filter, diamondbrite, 2 hp 2 speed hayward tristar filter, Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: In design phase, looking for non-SWCG system to suppleme

    Yeah, I checked the prices and you're right, a good stenner pump is likely the better long term solution.
    My current plans...
    11 x 32 IGP w/ spa ~10000 gal
    Gunite w/ NPT Quartscapes Luederstone coping
    Badu Stream II Pkg A Swim Jets
    Pentair VS pumps with Intellitouch/ScreenLogic controls

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