Newbie about to start installing SWCG

[diasurfer]

hi, first time poster and pool owner here.

We bought this house in summer of 2011 and I'm just now taking over from the pool guy we used while we settled in. I plan to use BBB method. I'm starting to put together equipment I will need and just received my Taylor K-2006 test kit yesterday but haven't used it yet. I was hoping to wait until the weekend when I could give it some time but it will have been a couple of weeks since the pool guy was last here. Am I taking too much chance by waiting? I could try to come home during lunch hour if I should get on it right away. The water looks fine and it's gotten too cold to swim in the pool.

Other questions:

1. In what order should I do the tests?

2. From reading pool school, I know other levels should depend on CYA level. What should my CYA level be? Should it be seasonally adjusted for less intense winter sun?

3. I bought a 1-1/2" vacuum hose and vacuum head. The pool shop guy said this was the standard size. The hose fits the vacuum head but the other end doesn't fit my skimmer. The intake on the skimmer (the "box" part is concrete built into the pool) is 1-1/2" in diameter but my 1-1/2" hose is too wide to fit in the skinner intake and too narrow to fit over it. What do I need?

thanks!

 

[y_not]

Re: Newbie about to start

Hello diasurfer!
Welcome to TFP.
Glad to have you here.

hi, first time poster and pool owner here.

We bought this house in summer of 2011 and I'm just now taking over from the pool guy we used while we settled in. I plan to use BBB method. I'm starting to put together equipment I will need and just received my Taylor K-2006 test kit yesterday but haven't used it yet. I was hoping to wait until the weekend when I could give it some time but it will have been a couple of weeks since the pool guy was last here. Am I taking too much chance by waiting?

You might be able to wait until the weekend if the water temp is consistently below 60F and not getting up over that during the day. But I'd have at it, your 1st time is always the most uncertain and hardest. But after 2-3 times, it's easy as PIE!!

I could try to come home during lunch hour if I should get on it right away. The water looks fine and it's gotten too cold to swim in the pool.

If you run out of time on your lunch hour, don't let your pool get you fired! Just do the FC+CC (FAS-DPD) test, then do CYA. Do it outdoors, back to sun, sight tube at waist level and your water sample at a temp of >70F. Use a sink of hot water to warm her up if need be.

Other questions:

1. In what order should I do the tests?

Doesn't matter. Read this for tips. extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html

2. From reading pool school, I know other levels should depend on CYA level. What should my CYA level be? Should it be seasonally adjusted for less intense winter sun?

That is correct. If it's not a SWCG pool, IE. using just bleach. Then start out at 30ppm CYA, see how your CL consumption goes in the summer time, raise CYA if you're loosing 50% or more FC daily. Go up to 40PPM CYA, but no more than 50ppm. No, you don't adjust for the seasons. It (CYA) does get oxidized by the CL ever, ever soooo slowly. So it effectively stays all throughout the year, by the time winter rolls around you may have a little less in there. But you might not even be able to measure the difference of loss. Also, CYA can be depleted by backwashing, splashout, etc.. anything that removes water from the pool, thus having to top it off with more water. Basically it gets diluted.
Algae grows incredibly slow in water temperatures below 60deg Fahrenheit. So you'll use very, very little CL in the winter time, also due to the angle of the sun being lower toward the horizon, less UV to deplete the CL. That is if you don't cover it and close it, but instead maintain it as you normally would.

3. I bought a 1-1/2" vacuum hose and vacuum head. The pool shop guy said this was the standard size. The hose fits the vacuum head but the other end doesn't fit my skimmer. The intake on the skimmer (the "box" part is concrete built into the pool) is 1-1/2" in diameter but my 1-1/2" hose is too wide to fit in the skinner intake and too narrow to fit over it. What do I need?

You probably need a skimmer vacuum head adapter plate. Something like this: Vacuum Plate

thanks!

Sure thing.
Oh, one last thing. Keep reading pool school, then read it some more.

Any questions at all, hit us up.
We looove answering questions and helping people learn about their pools and save money.
We're all just pretty downright obsessed with it.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

Hello diasurfer!
Welcome to TFP.
Glad to have you here.

...

Oh, one last thing. Keep reading pool school, then read it some more.

Any questions at all, hit us up.
We looove answering questions and helping people learn about their pools and save money.
We're all just pretty downright obsessed with it.

y_not,

thanks for the welcome and feedback. I don't think the type of vacuum hose adapter you linked would work for me because my skimmer is just an intake pipe that draws from a recess in the side of the pool instead of the type that contains the entire self-contained housing. I found the type of vacuum hose adapter I needed at the pool store. My skimmer intake and hose are both 1-1/2 inch so they sold me a double-male adapter that fits inside each so I'm good to go.

Anyway, I went home at lunch and went ahead and did the full set of 5 tests with my kit. Since it's now time to discuss pool balance issues, I'm going to start a new thread on that sub-forum.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

No need to start a new thread, you can keep updating this thread so your story is together.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

OK, so I'll keep my thread here. Here are the results of my first test, performed today at lunchtime.

FC 14
CC 0
pH 8.0
acid demand: 3 drops to 7.6, 4 drops to 7.4
TA 100
CH 440
CYA 100+

Notes:
1. I performed the FAS-DPD Chlorine Test twice and got consistent results - 28 drops. (I'm glad I did the 10 ml test instead of the 25 ml test!). Water temp was 72F so I didn't have to warm it up.
2. I got no change in color when I added R-0003 so no CC. Also did this test twice.
3. Performed the pH test twice. I recall reading that pH test only goes to 8.0.
4. Alkanlinity test took 9 drops to turn clear and 10 drops to turn pink. I used 10 drops and 10x to get 100.
5. CH test took 44 drops which was a lot.
6. CYA test I performed multiple times with same set of sample water/reagent mix. The black dot was gone well before I reached 100 both times, I'd say 1/4" or a little more on the scale. Since the graduations on the scale are nonlinear, a wild guess is 130-150 but either way it's 100+.

Questions about testing:

1. On the FC test, the entire sample has to be clear right? I would get a mostly clear sample but residual pink at the bottom so I kept adding.
2. I found it difficult to mix the various drops well through stirring because I feared spilling out of the top. But just gentle shaking didn't seem to mix very well (see comment above for example). On the pH test, I just added the drops and capped it to mix well, but this doesn't work for titration. Is it common to use an automatic stirrer?
3. Should I use the 10 ml test instead of the 25 ml test for CH? 44 drops seems like a lot but perhaps the precision is needed?

My first take on balance:

It appears my FC is high. This might explain why I don't have any algae even though the pool guy hasn't been here in a couple of weeks. The recommended values of FC (3-5) in Pool School for much lower levels of CYA don't apply here right? From the Chlorine/CYA chart, target FC for a CYA of 100 is 12 so even with that I'm over.

My pH and TA are high. Should I apply muriatic acid to reduce? CH is also high. According to pool calculator, my option is to replace water.

Comments?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

If you still have the CYA mixture, you can try dumping out half and replacing with tap water and then doubling the result to get a better idea. Or redo the test, but start with 50/50 pool and tap water before adding the reagent and then double the result.

1. FC test should go completely clear. In all the tests, add drops until the last one does nothing and it does not count. Not the water may turn pink again after a little time, but that is normal. You should add drops around 1 per second (or a little faster).
2. The SpeedStir is awesome ... many people use it and it makes the tests easier and more accurate.
3. The CH test is not that critical, use the 10ml and each drop is then 25ppm, which is close enough.

One note, the pH test will read artificially high when the FC > 10ppm. Generally we recommend not doing the pH test until the FC is less than 10ppm.

Many pool services run the CYA much higher than we recommend so that they can get away with coming by less often, since it protects the FC from the sun. The come and raise the FC very high towards the shock level and then hope there is still FC present when they come the next time. In the winter with colder water, the FC does not drop as fast. I know a local pool service runs the CYA up around 200ppm and now only come every 2 weeks

You CH is not too bad, but in combo with the possible high pH could lead to scaling. Your bigger issue is the high CYA. You should likely replace water to get it down in the 30-50ppm recommended range. This will then lower your required FC to be less than 10ppm and thus allow you to accurately measure the pH and keep it in the lower range as needed due to your higher CH.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

Thanks for the feedback. The SpeedStir has now been placed on my Christmas wish list.

I suspected the same as reason for high CYA. My pool guy came once a week and over the summer we'd occasionally get a little algae because the chlorine was depleted so fast.

I was afraid you would say I need to lower the CYA. According to the pool calculator, I need to replace 50-60% of the water in my pool. Yikes! According to the former pool guy, if I turn to valves the right way, my pool pump can be used to draw water from a well to fill the pool, but I've never tried it (neither did he). The idea makes me nervous since I don't really know what will come out. In order to fill the pool this way, I can't use the pump system to drain it, so I would have to drain and then fill. Is there a section in Pool School about replacing water? I didn't see it under the headings.

Before I just fill it with the hose, I would need to find out price per gallon of water.

Is there an argument to be made for higher levels of CYA in places like south florida with lots of sun? I have to be realistic with myself and I don't know if I can see myself testing and adding chlorine to the pool daily. I was hoping to get away with two or three times a week. What about CYA at around 70-80 as compromise between 30 and 130? How low do I have to go on FC before I can start getting accurate pH test results?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

FC just has to be under 10ppm for the pH test to be accurate.

There are 3 issues with high CYA:
1. Requires higher FC, and if over 10ppm, can not test pH
2. Required higher FC, and thus more reagent to test the FC level
3. And most critical, if you need to go through the shock process, the FC shock level get VERY high that must be maintained to clear the pool and this take a LOT of drops to test the FC level (60+ for each test).

You can follow the levels we recommend ... or not ... choice is up to you. But these levels have been determined to offer the highest chance of success at maintaining a clear pool.

If you are going to be lazy about testing and adding chlorine, then maybe an automated system (either to feed liquid chlorine or a SWG) should be on your radar to help maintain the FC level ... you will still need to keep an eye on the pH, especially given you slightly high CH.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

Well I admit in some ways I'm lazy. But even if I weren't, working full time and living with a 3 year old, a 2 year old, and a pregnant wife who also works full time is just going to mean that there's going to be days that that FC titration test is not going to happen. I can already anticipate my wife asking me why we aren't paying the pool guy if I'm spending every day testing the pool and I will have to answer with explanations involving chemistry, so I just need to make sure I have this straight. Also, I will look into a SWG system or some other automated system.

The recommended levels page says they are not ideal for all situations and ask the pool forum for what's ideal for my pool. I wanted to make sure that having an unshaded pool in south florida was not one of those situations in which a higher CYA than the normal 30-50 is called for. Apparently it's not.

So, on to the idea of pool draining to get CYA down to 50. Where can I read more about how to partially drain and refill a pool?

thanks!

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

Full sun would put you around 50ppm, although your signature states that the pool is screened in ... so that may reduce some of the sun's affects so you could get by even lower. A little higher CYA, just means you need to keep the FC a little higher. Although if you go with a SWG system, then the CYA recommendations are 70-80ppm ... although again with the screen you might get away with lower.

The biggest concern about draining an in ground pool is what your ground water table is. If you drain below the ground water, the pool could become a boat and float out of the ground. So, you can either only drain a foot or 2 at a time and then refill (this actually uses more water to get the same CYA reduction), or you can try the mythical tarp method which was just recently proven to work:
foreclosure-swamp-in-pensacola-florida-t54326-40.html#p449932

 

[RobbieH]

Re: Newbie about to start

FYI - an SWG will cost you around $550. If you are handy at all, it's a DYI job. Mostly just cutting and gluing PVC and running a wire to your timer. With an SWG, I have no problem at all making my pool testing a weekly incident, not a daily one. You'll almost never transport chlorine again, but you'll have to make muriatic acid additions - which you need to do anyway to get that TA down.

The reason I say "almost" on the chlorine is I do keep Clorox on hand in case of a heavy load bringing my FC down, or if it's needed for anything else. But it is EXTREMELY rare.

 

[SebringDon]

Re: Newbie about to start

Hey, Miami... I'm a bit west and north of you, and I get by with twice-a-week testing even though my CYA's only 20. PoolCalculator says my target range is 2 to 6, and I lose about 1 ppm a day (more if the cover's off, less if it's on). I do my pool work on Friday and Monday. I test my current FC and bump it to 5 or 6 depending on what's expected weather-wise. Even Monday-Friday I'm always over 2 ppm when I test. I'm always in that 2-6 ppm range. I may be using a bit more chlorine that way, but at less than $10 a month total chlorine use, I'm not going to worry about it.

I know that 1 ppm translates to 18 oz of 10% chlorine for my pool. I could probably get by with dumping in 54 oz on Friday and drop my testing back to once a week, adjusting my dose after that Monday testing, and that's my plan as soon as I've got enough experience to know those numbers work. It would probably be possible to dump in 18 oz/day, test after a week, and still maintain my water in good condition.

Be aware, though, as the weather warms and swimmer load increase, you'll need to learn how those things impact your chlorine consumption. Maybe my daily dose will become 30 oz, but as long as I know that number and treat often enough to stay in the recommended chlorine range, I figure I'm good to go.

 

[y_not]

Re: Newbie about to start

Excellent tips so far. Good stuff.
I would say DEFINITELY dilute your CYA sample /w tap water. Make sure the tap water is also at >70F, as well as the sample of course.
You'll need to know how much CYA you really have in there. Otherwise you're shooting in the dark on the partial drain.

As for well water, in many places it is high in minerals, some places not. So you need to get it tested for both copper & iron. If it is high in either or both. I wouldn't use it at all. It's not worth the cost savings, as in the end it will cost you more money and more headache to keep your pool from developing stains, greenish blue/red water and turning blondes blue like smurfs. It's not worth the headache and the costs of sequestering the metals. Go with the city water.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

Thanks for the advice everyone. I wasn't initially considering a SWG but I initially thought they would cost more than posted here. Let's say I bought and installed a system myself for $500. How much time before I recover that cost in savings from not buying chlorine? I priced liquid chlorine at local pool shop today for $4.35 per 2.5 gallons (refilled container) for 10% concentration. If I used one bottle a week (pool shop guy's estimate for my pool) that's $225 a year so I recoup cost of SWG in a bit over two years. But with SWG you have to buy the salt and also use more muratic acid right? Plus every 3 years or so replace the cell on the SWG? Is it more about convenience than saving money?

Also nice to hear from someone in my area who is getting by okay with less than daily testing. All good food for thought. One reason I waited until winter to take over the pool myself is that since it's not getting used now, and it appears my FC is not too low at the moment, I have some more leeway in getting things set up how I want them to be.

In the meantime, I'll dilute my CYA test and repeat to get a more accurate number.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

SWG generally do not end up saving money once everything is accounted for. They really are more about convenience.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Newbie about to start

Re: vacuum, get a leaf canister if you have any significant debris. Otherwise you will eventually clog a pipe. If the ascends are good and youhave just dust and such then no worries on the current method.

I also get by with less than daily testing. Once the pools cycles became clear I prepared bleach bottles that my brother-in-law put in daily. I tested weekly or twice a week.

Sent via Tapatalk...

 

[y_not]

Re: Newbie about to start

SWG generally do not end up saving money once everything is accounted for. They really are more about convenience.

diasurfer,

Here are some links to threads with information that backup the above statement(s).

Actual SWG vs. Bleach Cost, Eye popping!
5 reasons to use a Salt-Water Chlorination (SWC) system - A pool industry magazine article /w discussion on the cons as well as costs.
The SWCG > Bleach Cost Comparison Calculator - Mentioned in above thread.
*This appears to be down right now, but I know it was up recently as I looked @ it myself.
Link to post by Jason Lion summarizing, as well as providing links to adl. discussions on the costs.

There's some good stuff in these threads.
Happy reading.

 

[diasurfer]

Re: Newbie about to start

UWVanya, my pool is enclosed with screens (and surrounded by a pool fence) so leaves and other garbage getting into it is not a major issue. When something does get in there, I'll scoop it out with the net before vacuuming.

Thanks for the comments and links. Always nice as a newbie to a forum to ask a question that turns out to be a can of worms with a large back story to read up on. So cost is unlikely to be a reason to install a SWG. Convenience, yes. And now I'll add water quality to the pros. I came across this quote

If you are considering getting one just to save money, then you will probably be disappointed in the long term. Having said that, however, the other advantages make them a great option for many people, including myself. My youngest daughter has fairly severe eczema so a SWG was a foregone conclusion for us. Sure, we could just ad salt to the water for the same effect, but I figure it I'm going to do that, I might as well get the added benefit of chlorine generation

My 2 year old has moderate eczema so that might be reason enough. My 3 year old loves to swim and typically comes out of the pool with bloodshot eyes. If SWG makes for a nicer pool for my kids and less hassle for me, then the up front cost may be worth it regardless of any extra savings (or long term costs).

I haven't gotten much feedback on best way to replace ~50% of the water in my pool. (I realize I need to repeat the CYA test to get an accurate number. Will do.) I'd like to know if I can do it in one shot safely. There is a canal in my backyard that sits about 20' from my pool. Water level on the canal is maybe 5'-6' below the upper edge of my pool, which is also the approximate pool depth. So I would guess that the bottom of the pool is about the same level as the canal water level. This would suggest that I would be fine, if the water level of the canal is same as the water level in ground. (I would think this generally would be the case but canal water level is manipulated by the water management district pumping). I know the plaster in my pool was redone a few years ago. How is this done without the pool "floating" up? Do they place weights in/the pool in areas not being covered? Or can I assume that I'm safe?

At least I know I can pump water into the canal to drain the pool without flooding out the neighbors!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Newbie about to start

You have many options to replace the water. Before you do anything, test the water and be sure it does not contain metals.

Next, call some plaster/pool fools and ask if flotating a pool after draining is a big concern in your area. Also try county extension to get water table info. Canal most likely is not any help in predicting levels.

If there happens to be a concern post the details of what you learned and we can advise you how to use a tarp to keep the old water separated from the new.

Sent via Tapatalk...

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Newbie about to start

As SeanB stated, you can add salt to your pool and get the same effect without the SWG. Red burning eyes are more likely due to the presence of CC or the pH being out of range.

When pools are built with high ground water, often a hydrostatic valve is install which allows the ground water to enter the pool so that it will not float out of the ground ... it would take a LOT of weight to hold the pool down and not feasible. I think sometimes when the pools are resurfaced they will also drill holes in the bottom to relieve water pressure as well. Another possibility is a sump pump that is placed in a hole near the pool that pumps any groundwater near the pool away.

The safest options are multiple small water changes or the tarp method I linked to previously:
foreclosure-swamp-in-pensacola-florida-t54326-40.html#p449932