Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, high AD

[FLHOKIE]

This is my first pool and I have only been maintaining it for about a month. I have consistently high chlorine, pH, AD an TA. The salt level is around 3300-3450 ppm.
I keep adding acid to help. A few days ago I turned the SWG off for a day and now I am running the pump for (2) 3 hour periods with a 7 hour break in the middle. I also reduced the Chlorine generation from 20% to 15% but I still have high readings although the Chlorine is now starting to be in an acceptable range at around 3.0. The pH is still over 8 (never changes) and the Acid Demand is down to 3 from a high of 5. The TA ranges from 120-140.

My test readings seem to be consistent with the local pool store readings.

I usually add around a quart of acid but the acid demand doesn't seem to change whether I add the acid daily or weekly.

Any advice on what to do would be appreciated.

 

[duraleigh]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

The pH will come down into the 7's if you add enopugh acid and that is what you should do. pH in the 8's is never a good thing. What is your CYA test result? How does your water look?

 

[y_not]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

What is the reading of "AD" you mention?
Here at TFP we have FC/CC/pH/TA/CH/CYA, there are other niche specialty tests. But they aren't used regularly, nor owned by most.

I'm betting this is a pool store "test" result, some special name they have. Could it be TDS, Total Dissolved Solids? Maybe they're calling it "Actual Dissolved Solids".

Do you have your own test kit, what kind?

Posting a full set of test results would be very helpful.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

AD is probably acid demand.

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[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

This is my first pool and I have only been maintaining it for about a month. I have consistently high chlorine, pH, AD an TA. The salt level is around 3300-3450 ppm.
I keep adding acid to help. A few days ago I turned the SWG off for a day and now I am running the pump for (2) 3 hour periods with a 7 hour break in the middle. I also reduced the Chlorine generation from 20% to 15% but I still have high readings although the Chlorine is now starting to be in an acceptable range at around 3.0. The pH is still over 8 (never changes) and the Acid Demand is down to 3 from a high of 5. The TA ranges from 120-140.

My test readings seem to be consistent with the local pool store readings.

I usually add around a quart of acid but the acid demand doesn't seem to change whether I add the acid daily or weekly.

Any advice on what to do would be appreciated.

What type and strength acid are you using? Whatever strength it is you are going to need to add more. Do it in batches, multiple times until you see pH drop.

As you add acid the TA will fall slowly. Let it.

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[y_not]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

AD is probably acid demand.

*Mr. Wong voice*
Aaahhhh, good point grasshopper!! Good point!

 

[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Update. I am starting to see some calcium deposits. I drained about 6-8 inches of water and replaced it. I got rid of that crappy test kit that came with the pool and got the Taylor K-2006C. This morning I got the following measurements which were the same or close to what my pool store read from a sample I took to them.

FC- 10ppm, CC=0, pH-8.0, TA- 90, Acid Demand - 2, Stability - 50, Calcium - 400, Salt = 3450. (I believe my previous free chlorine readings from cheap kit where wrong as I got higher levels from multiple readings (around 10-12 ppm) with the Taylor kit as well as pool store reading.

I have turned off the Intellichlor until the chlorine drops. I added 2.7 pints muriatic acid (20 degree Baume). I mixed the acid with water in a bucket and poured over calcium deposits where possible. I am running the pump 12 hours a day for now.

What next?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Actually if FC is 10+, pH will measure high even when it really is not. Let the FC drop below 10 before checking pH any further.

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[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Actually if FC is 10+, pH will measure high even when it really is not. Let the FC drop below 10 before checking pH any further.

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Wouldn't the calcium deposits indicate that pH is high?

 

[y_not]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Wouldn't the calcium deposits indicate that pH is high?

Calcium deposits and whether they occur, or the water ends up "leaching" calcium from the pool is all calculated from and in relation to your TA+pH+CH+Water temp+Salt, and if you have borates. All as a combination together. See Pool Calculator for CSI/LSI values. It may have been high in the past, CSI, but it may not be now.
High, positive, causes scaling. Low, negative, causes leaching.
As UWV said, you can't measure pH at an FC reading above 10.

You haven't listed your CYA test results. Did you perform that test? It is very critical to know this number and adjust if needed for proper chlorine management. Lest you overwork your SWCG, or end up with algae.
It is the test where you mix part solution, part pool water @ 70 deg. F or higher, then pour into a sight measure to obscure a black dot at the bottom.
*See extended test kit directions for tips on this very subjective, but not difficult to master test.
extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html

 

[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Wouldn't the calcium deposits indicate that pH is high?

Calcium deposits and whether they occur, or the water ends up "leaching" calcium from the pool is all calculated from and in relation to your TA+pH+CH+Water temp+Salt, and if you have borates. All as a combination together. See Pool Calculator for CSI/LSI values. It may have been high in the past, CSI, but it may not be now.
High, positive, causes scaling. Low, negative, causes leaching.
As UWV said, you can't measure pH at an FC reading above 10.

You haven't listed your CYA test results. Did you perform that test? It is very critical to know this number and adjust if needed for proper chlorine management. Lest you overwork your SWCG, or end up with algae.
It is the test where you mix part solution, part pool water @ 70 deg. F or higher, then pour into a sight measure to obscure a black dot at the bottom.
*See extended test kit directions for tips on this very subjective, but not difficult to master test.
extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html

First, let me say thanks for pointing me to the extended test kit directions!

The CYA came out to be 50 as measured by the pool store. My result said 90 but I don't think I finished the test. I would go with the pool store measurement since their other results appear to be accurate.

If I plug those numbers into the pool calculator and use a pool temperature of 68 and I calculated it correctly I get a CSI of .24.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Always trust your results...if you are not sure repeat the test. If you get consistent results you can be pretty sure you are doing better than the store.

Also lighting is critical, they likely did the test indoors which typically in my experience drops the number at least 15-20 points. If you got a result of 90 and you weren't done retest with half tap water and half pool water. Multiply the test result by 2 if you do this.



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[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Always trust your results...if you are not sure repeat the test. If you get consistent results you can be pretty sure you are doing better than the store.

Also lighting is critical, they likely did the test indoors which typically in my experience drops the number at least 15-20 points. If you got a result of 90 and you weren't done retest with half tap water and half pool water. Multiply the test result by 2 if you do this.



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Good advice. In fact, I repeated several tests with consistent results for FC, etc, however, I did not repeat on the CYA. I am going to retest chlorine and cya tomorrow after work. BTW... The pool store did the test indoors but they use a light table in the vertical position to take the readings. The light table (normally used to view photography film slides) is at a color temperature of daylight. Now I have found a use for my light table that I was going to get rid of but never did!

I know there seems to be a general distrust for pool stores on here but this one has a pretty good reputation and to my knowledge has only giving me good advice. That being said I am still doing my pool chemistry measurements myself. My pool builder said it was a good idea to get regular readings from the store so I have documentation that the pool was properly maintained if anything happens to the plaster which is warranted for several years.

 

[y_not]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

I should point out, as well as clarify what UWV said regarding repeating the test. You don't actually need to start all over, you can simply pour the solution out of the view tube and back into the mixing bottle. Give it a little slosh back/forth, then try again and keep repeating as necessary until you're sure you have got it right.

Make sure your sample is at 70f, check it with any old thermometer you have access to that works accurately. Let it warm up if it's low. Also, when mixing, it's best to gently slosh back and forth, end over end. As opposed to shaking. Read all the tips in that link for testing. They're helpful.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

I'm prepared to believe that some stores are really good at the testing.

However the color of the light is not the main issue... The contrast in the lighting and the indirect but still directional light source is more likely the determining factor.

I really think some of the anti pool store testing has to do with the fact that you need to test more often than is easy to do using a store. On to of which a lot of stores have colorimeter based tests which have poor repeatability. And those that don't have mediocre training fir administering the tests.

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[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Update 12/4. FC=10 CC=0 pH=8 AD=2 TA=80 CH=80 CYA=65 Salt=3450. Added 1.5 pints 20 degree Baume muriatic acid. Continue to leave SWG cell disabled. Right now I am continuing to let the Chlorine burn off to an acceptable level and lowering the pH. When more chlorine burns off I plan to adjust CYA.

Am I on the right track?

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Letting the FC drop a little more to then allow you to get the pH into range is a good idea. But, I do not understand why you are then going to adjust the CYA? What are you planning to do as 65ppm is very close to recommended level? Note that in the winter (and with a screen enclosure) the sun is not going to be burning off the FC nearly as fast.

I am guessing you FC was always so high due to the screen room reducing the FC loss to the sun. So, you likely need to lower the SWG output and/or reduce your pump run time.

The only thing I see wrong with your levels is the CH is much too low for an aggregate pool ... well wait a minute ... why are your 12/4 numbers so different from the 12/2 numbers? Your CYA went up from 50 to 65 and your CH dropped from 400 to 80????

 

[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

Letting the FC drop a little more to then allow you to get the pH into range is a good idea. But, I do not understand why you are then going to adjust the CYA? What are you planning to do as 65ppm is very close to recommended level? Note that in the winter (and with a screen enclosure) the sun is not going to be burning off the FC nearly as fast.

I am guessing you FC was always so high due to the screen room reducing the FC loss to the sun. So, you likely need to lower the SWG output and/or reduce your pump run time.

The only thing I see wrong with your levels is the CH is much too low for an aggregate pool ... well wait a minute ... why are your 12/4 numbers so different from the 12/2 numbers? Your CYA went up from 50 to 65 and your CH dropped from 400 to 80????

CH was 370. I posted the wrong number. Also, I think originally on 12/2 I did the CYA analysis wrong and did not know that the temp had to be at least 70 degrees. After tips on here, I think I got it right.

I believe you are right about the screen room reducing the FC loss. I had originally reduced the SWG output and the pump run time and will return to that strategy once the FC drops enough.

 

[FLHOKIE]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

12/8 readings: FC=7 CC=0 pH=8 AD=2 TA=80 CH=400 CYA=60 Salt=3450. Am running pump 12 hours a day and have had SWG off all week. I am wondering what is a good guide for # of hours to run pool pump. Thinking of running it in the morning and evening. Once I have the FC to an adjustable level I want to have a set number of hours per day to run the pool pump. And then adjust the amount of Chlorine the SWG produces.

Suggestions appreciated!

 

[ping]

Re: Novice Needs Help - High Chlorine, high pH, high TA, hig

The run time is for you to figure out because every pool is different. Having a VS pump gives you lots of options at how long you should run the pump. The basics are: run the pump enough to keep the water clear and long enough to make enough chlorine at your set percentage. You can run your pump at a high speed for a shorter span or longer at low speeds. You will then need to adjust your SWG % to match your run time. The longer the run time, the lower the SWG % will be.

My pool went from a 12 hour run time on high speed with the SWG set at 80% this summer, to 5 hours on high speed with 40% during the fall, and is now at 8 hours on low speed with 25% on the SWG.