cloudy and impatient.

[riseandrun]

Hi everybody,
My cloudiness started about a week ago. One of my staff added 2 lbs of ph up to raise my PH from 7.2 to 7.8. I learned afterwards that my CC was at 2! Here's where I'm at today at day two of shocking the pool 10am 11/18:
FC 16 - It was at 21 yesterday at 3:40pm
CC 1.5
PH 7.2
CYA 40- I was supplimenting my liquid bleach 12.5% because I go through CL so quick with my pool temp. I also just read a post about having the correct lighting so I could be lower. I doubt that I have gone through 20- 3inch tabs in my auto chlorinator.
TA 70
CH 500 or more. When I test for CH the color would go from "pink" to blue and then back to pink when I turned off the magnetic stir. (By the way it works great if you don't own one)
I tested my CH with my tap water and it's over 350 right from the tap. Well water and very high in sulfur. Nearby town is called Coal City....
My question is before I get mugged by the seniors here for closing the pool so I could shock it, can I add oxy clear (Like I probably should have done to start with) or am I asking for a caustic chemical mix. The directions on the container say I need 2 lbs, and we can swim in 15 minutes. It's a non-chlorine shock in case Oxy clear is a brand name.
Since I'm already closed, I'm thinking I'm going to let the chlorine burn off, dump in the oxy clear, and retest for CC tomorrow before my 1 pm class.
TIA

 

[dmanb2b]

an older quote, but applies in your case

Non chlorine shock works differently than chlorine. It will not break down chloramines but rather helps prevent them from forming if a residual is in the water at all times. This means weekly addition$ of the non chlorine shock. It will also test as CC unless a $pecial reagent is used to remover the interference during testing. It is going to cost you more money than chlorine. For an outdoor pool it is an unnecessary expen$e, IMHO. For an indoor pool it does have certain benefits in terms of indoor air quality and redection of CC since an indoor pool gets no UV light from the sun and the UV light is part of what breaks down CC when you shock with chlorine.

Bottom line, you can not properly shock a pool in a day...it's a process that requires patience and time. You could always just close the pool and deal with the mess in the spring if you are short on time now.

 

[riseandrun]

Thanks for the reply. I can't close the pool, it's at a retirement community and it's opened all year. The people are pretty understanding.
Another question, is there any harm in using older shock other than its only one fourth in strength compared to fresh? I've also been reading about other "maintenance" type additives. I guess like Oxy clear. Back to school......

 

[duraleigh]

Is this an indoor pool? What city and state, if not.

 

[riseandrun]

It is indoors in Illinois.

 

[duraleigh]

Indoors make a very big difference. Non-chlorine oxidizers have a good place indoors.

However, I think you are in the middle of the chlorine process so I am not sure what would be gained by switching to non-chlorine.

I probably would suggest confirmation that your CYA is indeed 40 (too high) and drain enough of the pool water to get it down to around 20.

Once the CYA is down, you can then recheck your CC level and, if needed, start the shock process again but now you will only need about 10-14ppm FC to complete the task.

BTW, your pool is perfectly swimmable at those levels so there is really no need to close it.

 

[riseandrun]

I appreciate your response. My state tells me that if my chlorine level is above 5ppm I'm supposed to close the pool! At almost 92 degrees I'm burning through the chlorine. My biggest problem is the water is so cloudy that you can't even see the drain in 5 ft. I've done a few things today like continue the shock process and I changed the filter sand. I will report the outcome for future readers education.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

If you can't have the pool above 5 FC then you can't use the shock process even with a CYA of 20. Maybe a CYA of 10 with a shock of 5 would work? Target would be something like 1-2.

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[duraleigh]

If you are restricted to 5ppm FC, you will need to drain ALL the CYA out of your pool....or close to it. Keeping your FC at 5ppm or less with a CYA of 40 or even 30 really never gets you into the process (as UWV already says) and your cleanup efforts will be excruciatingly slow.

MPS may work (non chlorine shock) best but I do not have enough experience to advise you on how to apply it.

 

[Bama Rambler]

The way I read it, you're going to have to close the pool until you complete the shock process and pass the OCLT. Then you can bring the FC back under 5 ppm. It would be best if your drained enough water to get the CYA to about 20 ppm and then shocked it. That way you're normal FC would be 2 to 5 ppm and you'd meet the state requirement.

You could drain all the water and refill it if that's quicker and the cost of the water isn't an issue. You'd have to rebalance it once you get the new water in it and reheat the water so that may be a concern. The other thing that draining would do is get the CH down as it's quite high.

Do you have a set of test results for the fill water?

 

[riseandrun]

Bama Rambler you understand my predicament correctly. It's not that I can't legally close the pool, I just have to be in certain perameters to keep it open. I thank you all for the help. I am in the process of shocking the pool. (put in 4 gallons of 12.5% yesterday and will check my OCLT this morning) I informed everybody that I'm closing the pool until next Monday. Today I will retest for my CYA in the correct lighting and report back.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Bama Rambler you understand my predicament correctly. It's not that I can't legally close the pool, I just have to be in certain perameters to keep it open. I thank you all for the help. I am in the process of shocking the pool. (put in 4 gallons of 12.5% yesterday and will check my OCLT this morning) I informed everybody that I'm closing the pool until next Monday. Today I will retest for my CYA in the correct lighting and report back.

I followed the situation also - but assumed (bad mistake!) that you would not want to close if you had to shock. My bad. You understand the process - but if the pool gets a LOT of use then you might want to read some posts that chem geek and others have made about commercial pools. My understanding is that the bather load is a much larger part of the problem than normal with residential pools. There may be a need to add liquid chlorine after folks have finished for the day - just to be able to avoid a buildup of CC's - but I'm not clear on the details.

 

[riseandrun]

You understood correctly. I've gone back and forth here. Having never shocked a pool before I didn't realize the length of time.
My original problem was the pool being very cloudy. then I learned that my CC was at 2. I was hoping that an overnight shock would clear up the pool and I might only have to close it for 1 day. When it still looked bad the next day I forgot I had Oxy clear (my pool guy told me was a non chlorine shock. Swim in 15 minutes... I thought why didn't I just use that in the first place
Here's where I am tonight: Having added 4 gallons last night of good fresh 12.5% SH, I tested this morning and still 1 CC. Put in 2 more gallons... Will test tonight around 8pm and see where I'm at tomorrow morning.
My biggest lesson learned is test for CC. and do something about it :lol:
I tested for CYA and I got 40, my help got 28. Since the directions stated it takes a little practise at first, I thought we would check independantly and compare results.
What else? I definitely need to be adding chlorine more often. I keep the pool very warm for the older residents (they do aquatic excersizes) My bather load is not very big. I think I loose so much chlorine because of the temperature. Also is there a set time to wait from the time I add SH, usually poured in near the outlet pipe, till the time someone goes in?
Let me know if you're even more confused. I'm going to try and take a picture of the water and post it tomorrow.

 

[Richard320]

Also is there a set time to wait from the time I add SH, usually poured in near the outlet pipe, till the time someone goes in?
Let me know if you're even more confused. I'm going to try and take a picture of the water and post it tomorrow.

If you poured it in in front of a return, 15 minutes should be plenty.

Also, be aware that UV light destroys Combined Chlorine. If you have an indoor pool, you're not going to get much UV light from the sun.

 

[chem geek]

One of the problems you are having is that with an indoor pool you want the CYA to be low, or more technically, the FC/CYA ratio to be higher than with an outdoor pool because you aren't getting any UV from sunlight and such UV helps control Combined Chlorine (CC). This is why a UV system can be helpful for an indoor pool but is not usually needed for an outdoor pool.

For indoor pools, we normally recommend an FC that is closer to 20% of the CYA level, something like 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA, especially if the pool is commercial/public but keep in mind that some jurisdictions prohibit use of CYA in indoor commercial/public pools (you should check on that -- what state and county are you in?). This obviously means you cannot use Trichlor nor Dichlor as a regular source of chlorine since it would increase the CYA level too quickly.

As for temperature, the chlorine will react more quickly at higher temperature and will outgas faster, but with CYA in the water it won't be nearly as fast as with pools with no CYA. Even at 92ºF, you should not be going through chlorine so quickly -- if you are, then that's due to something else consuming chlorine in the pool such as bather load or algae growth (even if not yet visible). Cloudiness can come from the early stages of algae growth and consumes a good deal of chlorine. The other possibility is that the bathers have been bringing in contamination (lotions) that cloud the water or they may be urinating (incontinence) that creates a rather large chlorine demand. 1 cup of urine in 10,000 gallons eventually consumes 0.6 ppm FC.

Also keep in mind that non-chlorine shock registers as CC in the test unless you use an explicit MPS interference remover (Taylor K-2042) as was mentioned in the quote from waterbear.

 

[riseandrun]

Can't tell you how much I appreciate all the input. I'm really excited this morning because it looks like a miracle has occured in my pool last night. When I left yesterday I couldn't hardly see the pool bottom at the steps which is less than 3 ft, and this morning when I opened the pool it's clear enough to see the drain in 5ft. This is without the lights on even! (There is a woman who comes very early to sit in the hot tub to "loosen up" so I didn't turn the lights on)
I tested the pool and my FC is 25+. I'll do the whole test a little later after I go through the "rounds". My CC is still reading 1, but it has to be because I've used the Oxy Clear in the past? Since I have the TFT-100 is there a reageant I can order seperately to do the CC test, or do I buy the entire K-2042 test kit?
I think the lesson I need to learn is to make sure I keep my FC level around the 5 mark, in my case error on the high side rather than the low. Check my CC's more often and shock as soon as I reach .5. What else am I missing?
At this point I wait to add any more SH correct? What do you all think of chlorine neutralizers?
Next battle is all the green staining on the bottom..... it's really not that trouble free for me....

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Until you have a less than 1ppm loss of FC overnight, and have CLEAR water (invisible) and cc is 0.5 or less, you keep shocking.

Green stains = not clear unless they are from metals. Have you tested them? Put a pick of trichlor on the stain for a few minutes. When you take it off is the stain lighter? Off it is then the stain is organic and you need to shock until it is gone. If it does not change them you may want to try ascorbic acid (vitamin c) tablets on the stain also in a similar way. If the ascorbic acid works then you have a metal stain.


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[chem geek]

You buy the entire K-2042 kit since it is just a supplement to the FAS-DPD chlorine test you already have. That is, the K-2042 kit by itself does nothing.

If you need to bring down the chlorine level more quickly (after meeting the overnight loss criteria), then you can use a chlorine neutralizer from a pool store or you can use hydrogen peroxide. You lower 1 ppm FC in 10,000 gallons by using 21 fluid ounces of 3% hydrogen peroxide or 2.3 fluid ounces of 27% hydrogen peroxide (i.e. Baquacil Oxidizer).

 

[riseandrun]

My exhuberance is short lived. I didn't realize that I turned off the pump yesterday, and as soon as I turned it back on, cloudy again.. But now I'm thinking after my FC gets measured tonight I will turn off the pump again. Tomorrow morning I'll vacuum with the back wash on. Does this make sense?
Ordering my K 2042 shortly.
Happy Thanksgiving all.

 

[jblizzle]

If you are going to vacuum the settled "stuff", you should do it on the Waste setting (or just Filter and then Backwash when you are done). You never want to intentionally suck in dirt in Backwash mode as it will be trapped on the wrong side of the sand bed. Then when you switch back to Filter, it will blow all the crud back into the pool.