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Thread: shocking headache

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    shocking headache

    I think i might of done things BACKWARDS!!
    pool size : 7,500 gallon, ballanced + CYA 20ppm
    Yes i did you the pool calculator, very great product.
    The problem began when,
    I invited the kids from our neighborhood who did not shower, most wore shirts on, and the parents drinking beer in the pool.
    All in good fun.
    Now the start of the headache..
    the pool went from crystal clear(even smelled a little of baking soda (fresh)). Now, after the party, you couldn't see the bottom!!
    I shocked the pool, but only for a NORMAL shock or ALGAE shock but not for a MOUNTAIN of body dirt, oil, etc.!!!
    so i shocked for normal level and the water slowly began to clear, very slowly...
    2 weeks later... as the chlorine levels began to lower ( from a shock level), the water began to haze over
    Then, I remembered seeing a BREAKPOINT CHART which states:
    ALL of the CC MUST BE BURNED OFF or else - yep- start all over!!! only this time, it'll take 2x twice the chlorine.
    The real problem here is : when there is so much dirt off the kids ( god bless their soles), it really cant be measured on any test kit!!
    Back to the beginning of the story, so, unknowingly, i added what a CYA of 20 ppm level should have for shocking (say for algea ) say around 24 ppm of SHOCK. Al along tho, i had this huge amount of residual dirt, oil etc still remaining in the pool water. But the problem began when the water started to clear soon after the shock (24 ppm). it took a good 10 days to do so. Then, anxious to get back into the water, i was dumbfounded to see the water haze right back over again as soon as the levels got to around 15 ppm of chlorine!
    The T.A is good. pH is good. CH is good ( little low). So i know it isnt a water balance issue but a FAILED ATTEMPT to BURN OFF ALL OF THE CHLORAMINES!!
    the Break point chart also warned that if the previous shock failed, now the 2nd shock attempt will be VERY DIFFICULT
    The question is?
    is it easier to just say chuck it n start over with fresh water? or take a stab at the runaway CC values the pool now has and dump 75lbs of Cal - Hypo 65% and hope for the best?

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: shocking headache

    Something isn't right. At 20ppm CYA, your chlorine shouldn't hold for much more than a day, much less more than a week.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: shocking headache

    Welcome to TFP!

    What you are describing does not sound anything like what we describe as the shock process. I would suggest reading through Pool School a few times and learning what we mean by the shock process. It is not a one time addition of chlorine to support high levels that may damage the pool. It is a process that utilizes accurate testing and dosing. To do that correctly, you need the FAS-DPD chlorine test which does not max out at 5ppm.

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    Re: shocking headache

    well at least its a relief to here that if i can hold a reasonable shock level UNTIL the breakpoint chlorination is reached - whether it takes 2 or more days - i'm ok with that.
    its a **** of a lot bether than trying to reach breakpoint in a 24 hr period.
    as far as the test kit is concerned. FAS DPD test kit only goes as high as 10 ppm. But since the FC levels are thru the roof with an indication that TC are close to double that, leads me to believe there is a whole pile of Chloramines that need to be burned off.
    At any rate, i will take another read at the Pool School's proper shock methods.
    - i'm hoping I can shock at what the pool calculator says for 20ppm CYA is for.
    I think what i may be doing wrong is this :
    i'm shocking according to what the pool calculator says but i thought to only 'hold the shock' for only or a max time of 24hrs.
    Instead, am i correct to assume (given i will take a second look at the pool school shock) that i should hold the shock time for 'as long as it takes' until all Chloramines are burned off? (reaching 'break point')?

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: shocking headache

    You are not correct about the FAS-DPD chlorine test. It can accurately measure up to 50ppm. You are likely still thinking of the DPD test.

    The FAS-DPD uses a powder and then you count the drops until the water changes from pink to clear. It is not a color matching test as you are likely familiar with.

    We do not use the break point terminology ... whatever that is. Likely a term you picked up at a different website. You should hold the shock FC level until you pass the 3 tests to stop. This can take days to weeks for true swamps. Yours is not a swamp so it should only be a few days.

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    Re: shocking headache

    ok, i think i may get it right this time...
    the pool school : How to Shock quotes:" When shocking, you need to keep adding chlorine until the breakdown process is complete."
    I knew that the break point had to be reached but my belief had been wrong - in thinking that it ALL had to be done within a 24hr period.
    i will definitely give it a go, this time i will ' hold' the shock process period for as long as it takes, according the the pool school's methods.

    the next question is : how will i monitor the pH while the Chlorine levels are very high. ?
    My test kit wont be able to test for pH if the Chlorine levels are in 'Shock levels'

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    Re: shocking headache

    you are correct i am using a pill that i drop in a tube (DPD 1 ) which gives me FC. Then i drop DPD 3 pill which gives me TC. Subtracting FC from TC gives me CC according to the test kit. The color intensity only goes as high as 10 ppm.
    I guess i will have to wing it until both test match FC = TC = 0 CC ( no difference in color in both test)
    and yes i will repeat the steps you mentioned. Sorry if the post are not in sync

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    Re: shocking headache

    Welcome to TFP!

    The DPD test you are describing can get bleached out at high chlorine levels which means you do not get a reliable FC reading and without a reliable FC reading the Total Chlorine and therefore the difference or Combined Chlorine (CC) reading is also suspect. Please get yourself a proper FAS-DPD test kit as recommended by this forum. Otherwise, you are shooting in the dark. Your CYA level, for example, may be very different than you think since it doesn't sound like you have a proper test kit such as the TFTestkits TF-100 or the Taylor K-2006. Also note that clearing once green turns cloudy is more of a function of good filtration than anything else though the shock level of chlorine ensures that the algae stays dead and does continue to oxidize some bather waste.
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    Re: shocking headache

    Ya i had a Taylor Test kit K2006, they are really good. However, here in Puerto Vallarta, they have a Mexican Version made by Spin, which cannot test accuratly once the Shock period begins. Im not clear on the part your saying regarding : "once green?..."

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    Re: shocking headache

    Normally shocking is done when there is algae in which case the pool is either cloudy green or there is visible algae (usually green). In your case, it sounds like you didn't have algae so ignore what I wrote about going green to cloudy. You are just starting from the cloudy stage. The shock level of chlorine will help clearing, but good circulation and filtration is essential since a good part of what got into the pool is insoluble material that doesn't break down with chlorine and must get filtered out. So it's the combination of shock levels of chlorine AND good circulation/filtration that clears a pool.

    What is the CYA test like in your kit? Does that also use tablets? Does it have a view tube with a black dot that disappears as you add of a pool water sample that was mixed with a melamine solution or tablet?
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: shocking headache

    i had 20 kids in 7,500 gal pool. God bless their soles , because they are all dirty no offence to them they are very poor. i'm sure they were very happy comming out of theire squeaky clean. however my pool went from clear to umm.. cant see the bottom. So i shocked , say at 24 ppm but only held it over night ( i think this is where the problem started). The water did clear up the instant i started shocking but after 2 weeks, the cloudiness came back. The water is balance TA, CH, pH etc.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: shocking headache

    You can not reliably test for pH when the FC > 10ppm. That is why the first step in the shock process is to adjust the pH to the lower 7s and then ignore it until the process is complete.

    Add your location to your profile so that we remember you are in Mexico later. I am not sure who would distribute the FAS-DPD test down there. There are other brands besides Taylor which is common in the states, but I do not know what is available where you are.

    Also post up any of the test results you have available. Likely you did not completely get the water cleared out before and now the algae has started to make the water cloudy again.
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    Re: shocking headache

    It is very, very hard to even google where any of these pool venders are here in PV, MEX. They are very limited in products and yes i wouldve prefered the Taylor test kit from the getko but they dont stock. I might be stuck in an endless loop since i can no longer accurately read my pH since the start of the Shock period. I'd hate to wait until it chlorine levels go down to do a proper pH test, for i would fear algae may creep in

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: shocking headache

    Well there are 3rd party companies that will ship to you that some people in Europe have used if a Mexican distributor can not be found.

    In fact, I think Taylor lists the companies on their website.

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    Re: shocking headache

    no prob. i appreciate the response back... i will contact Taylor n see if they have distributors in PV, Mex... I noticed in one of your forums it mentioned shocking at around 20 ppm a starting pH of 7.0 is prefearble. i have been throwing a 1/2 a cup of muriatic acid every time i add 2 cups of cal-hypo 65% just to more or less ( ugh ) keep the the pH in check while shocking. Otherwise, i may have to wait until FC is below 10 ppm n start over with the right pH
    what else can i do?

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    Re: shocking headache

    yea your right about the Taylor TF-100. the competitive kits dont come close to testing if the water becomes critical. i.e. high bather loads would make any test kits out of range

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    Re: shocking headache

    What type and brand pool do you have?
    What type and size filter do you have?
    What type and size pump do you have?
    How long are you running the pump each day?
    How much Cal-hypo have you added since it got cloudy?

    You may be dealing with a pump and/or filter problem.
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    Re: shocking headache

    You might need a sand change.
    24' round above ground, 13500 gallons, vinyl liner, 18" Sand Filter

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    Re: shocking headache

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    You might need a sand change.
    I doubt that. I guess the sand could be channeled - however does that fit? A channeled filter wouldn't clean the water even with high FC. Sounds more like inadequate shock levels, improper shock process - shook due to a kit that could not provide adequate measurement.

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    Re: shocking headache

    7,500 gal inground tile pool. 1/2 hp Hayward pump w/ s166T filter (rated 35 gal per min.)
    - pump : new bearings, new impeller, new lint basket,
    - Filter : new sand (2 months old), tank washed out, laterals cleaned & inspected.
    - Multivalve: replaced faulty spider gasket, faulty pressure gauge.
    T.A= 80
    pH = 7.5
    CH= 180
    CYA= 40


    The water was clear and trouble free ( even smelled fresh from the baking soda T.A)
    All things changed the minute the 20 kids came into the pool
    After 9 hrs splashing n having a heck of a time in there( god bless their little Mexican hears) the water turned completly foggy. Even the filter got clogged.
    As soon as they left, i knew an immediate SHOCK was in order.
    The problem started when i did not shock right ( i should've followed TFP's shock instructions to a T but i didnt)
    yes, i put enough enough Cal Hypo 65%, around 30 ppm of it.
    The water did start to clear up, 2 and 3 backwash had to be done ( for it did reach 8psi increase).
    10 days later, the water was clear.
    the Problem i think happened here is that ' I only put a One time dose of Cal Hypo ( the 30ppm dose ) only ONCE.
    Thinking that the shock is supposed to only be a 24hr treatment . Wrong on that i guess
    second problem, i should've taken to account the pH before starting the shock. Had i done so, i would've lowered the pH to around 7.0 just before beginning the shock process
    Back to the first problem: i should of kept the chlorine level to 30 ppm for as long as the chlorine demand is no longer present ( i.e say 2 3 maybe even 4 days )
    the third problem: is that i do not have a proper FAS DPD test kit. My DPD test kit i have ( a Mexican product) only reaches 10 ppm in TC or FC which is way to low.
    at the moment i am winging it to get out of the airplane like spin and the the pool back into control.
    I am now just beginning to cal hypo dose the pool to shock levels twice daily insuring its kept at shock levels for a few days.
    Since a proper FAS DPD kit is not within my reach, i will have to have my water tested on the 2nd day
    Since i cant test the pH now, because of the high Chlorine, i am guessing in putting 8 oz of MA per 12 oZ of cal hypo just be safe.
    I am trying something new, i am exposing a pool sample directly in the sunlight with a mirror reflecting back into the sample. Maybe the UV will neutralize the Chlorine to a point where i can test the pH. Otherwise, i will have to get it tested as well when i get the sample tested in the coming 2 days
    .

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