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Thread: A "Help!" topic as my first post

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    A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Hi all, I tried looking for previous related topics to no avail, so I'm posting... Not sure yet though if this is the appropriate forum, style, etc., so I'm going to give the background of my problem only, and then follow up with specifics if/when given the go ahead.

    My sig shows where I am located, and I'm the dealer here for the "top" US brand of "resistance" (counter-current) pools (starts with a S). The general install for our product is pretty cut-and-dry, so the issues I have are in trying to offer a "better", more convenient overall system for customers here.

    Basic automation is what I'm trying to work on now, and I chose to try Pentair's EasyTouch as a test case. And I'm stuck in the beginning, at the Load Center setup. As everyone seems to agree, the manual for Pentair products are pretty poor... I see a lot of decent "cautions" but very little "application examples", etc., to help me where my needs really are. To top things off, I'm not an electrician, but -- and here's the most important part -- I'm the one who needs to explain the specs and actual wiring to the local non-English speaking contractors. Pentair's tech people have not been able (or willing?) to guide me at all.

    So people, the ideal scenario for me is if I can list here the local environment, corresponding equipment, and the basic automation needs, and ask for connection advice so I can explain to the real electrician for installation! Programming-related stuff I'll need to do (presumable can do) myself, I just need to get the system installed "properly" first...

    Plz let me know if I'm in the appropriate place, or where else I should have posted, etc., and whether or not to continue with specifics!
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    This is as good a place as any to ask the questions you have. I'm not familiar with the Japanese electrical code but if you can provide specifics maybe we can help.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    4knights's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    My first question is what is the power there? When I was in Europe it was 110v or 220v but the Hertz was different (50 or 62) dont reallye remember but it ruined more household items than I can list. That was even using a transformer to convert power and hertz.
    My question to the manufacturers, Pentair/Hayward, etc... Would be, do they make their systems with the proper or correct volt/amp/hertz ratios for your power supply grid? Maybe technology has changed enough since the 1980s that it's no longer an issue?
    Ron- Kansas. IG fiberglass, Riviera 30 Freeform 13600 gallons,
    EasyTouch 4 w/IC20 SWCG, Pentair Whisperflo 1hp, 2 speed 220 pump, Hayward ProGrid 4820 DE filter using Eco Klean instead of DE, 2 Savi Melody 12v 5 color LEDs, Raypack 266k btu millivolt heater, Arctic Armour Mesh custom safety cover (Total self Install) TF-100 test kit w/Magic stir.

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Rambler & 4knights, thank you for helping start this off! I'm jazzed that you guys, or gals(?) are willing/able to help in this way, half a world away. How did we all survive a decade or so ago when this kind of communication didn't exist!? ;-D

    OK, pretty much, we "generally" get a range somewhere between 202 to 208V nationwide to the poles outside each house. The main equipment being run are rated at 240 (the pump is also a Pentair unit) -- though one unit, an ozonator, does work at 120 -- so, as we've been instructed to aim at 220-230 for the overall system, we order a custom transformer based on the actual input at each installation in to reach that level. Thus, for purposes of this discussion, I think you can presume we're working with 220(?). The country is also split in half east/west in terms of hertz.
    However, before I selected EasyTouch, I contacted Zodiac (AquaLink = Jandy?), Aqualine in Australia, Hayward, Pentair and even just US equipment suppliers on the Net about what unit they have that would fit both our environmental and functional needs. Anyway, Pentair assured me (also considering the pump is theirs) that the EasyTouch units work at both higher and lower voltages and hertz.
    So, in regards to 4knights' Q, it does appear, with some units, that voltage, etc., requirements are still an issue, while others are more compatible nowadays with a range of environments.

    Where do we go from here? Should I upload a photo of the breaker box in one install and an explanation to show the present "needs" and the schematics of the EasyTouch, or?
    JIC, I added the basic system info to my sig...
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    A description of exactly what you want to control and how would be next.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    The basic "operations" we need to be able to control are as follows:
    1. Turn ON/OFF ACTech inverter
    2. Turn ON/OFF complete filtration system (pump, heater, ozonator)
    3. Turn ON/OFF filtration pump alone
    4. Turn ON/OFF filtration pump + heater
    5. Turn ON/OFF filtration pump + ozonator
    6. Turn ON/OFF lights
    * Of course, it should be impossible to turn on or leave on the heater and/or ozonator without the pump being on as well...

    At the moment, each unit is directly connected to it's own individual breaker, the only way to turn them on/off. I'm hoping the EasyTouch Load Center can be used in place of the current breaker box, but I also have to purchase breakers from the US, as it doesn't appear than any local products will fit...
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    It sounds pretty straight forward. The manual should cover that pretty well. If I have time later I'll see if I can come up with a hookup. It may be a day or two.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Your easy touch relays will provide you the ability to ensure things don't turn on unless the pump does. My SWCG is connected to its own breaker just as the pump is on its own, but they both are controlled by the same relay. This way the SWCG cannot turn on unless the pump does as well.
    The easy touch system board has a special hook up for the heater (communication wire) that won't call for the heater to turn on unless you have it set to auto, freeze protection or set temp. So as long as the relay for the pump is the same for the heater power it will do the same as my setup. No flow from pump(power) no heater turning on.
    Ron- Kansas. IG fiberglass, Riviera 30 Freeform 13600 gallons,
    EasyTouch 4 w/IC20 SWCG, Pentair Whisperflo 1hp, 2 speed 220 pump, Hayward ProGrid 4820 DE filter using Eco Klean instead of DE, 2 Savi Melody 12v 5 color LEDs, Raypack 266k btu millivolt heater, Arctic Armour Mesh custom safety cover (Total self Install) TF-100 test kit w/Magic stir.

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    I'm feeling like the actual operations (software settings) aspect will indeed not be too hard for me to figure out, and I appreciate the info on the heater hook-up 4knights, thank you. Sounds simple and that I probably should have realized would be a given condition for running the heater. With a long history of pools and automation, the US is pretty far ahead of this country in understanding such requirements, even if it should just be common sense.

    What I'm really worried about is doing the correct wiring from the mains, getting the proper breakers (again, will probably need to order from the US), and then the low voltage connection. That manual "may" be sufficient for someone knowledgable about these systems (though I read overwhelming negativity on Pentair manuals even from people who seem to knowledgable), but it doesn't really offer enough info for a relative layman like myself to figure out the exact wiring in order to explain it in another language to an actual electrician!

    Rambler, thanks for offering to come up with something! Of course, only "when you have the time"! Much much appreciated. At least I "feel" closer to a solution than before!
    * BTW! JIC, the system requirements for the pool are single-phase, max 18kW with everything running, rated amps @ 105 (85 to 135), and I added the recommended breaker sizes and the amps for each unit to my sig...
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Bama Rambler: Should I be congratulating you on a BCS bid, or does your username signify something other than a Tide fan?
    Just want to check in and make sure you guys haven't forgotten about me. Though I know you're all surely busy, I do need to try to resolve this relatively soon now and sincerely hoping for the help. Don't want to push though if that's not possible! Thanks...
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    The name is actually for another reason (camping) but a Tide fan I am also.

    Sorry I haven't had the time to go through the manual and come up with a hookup.

    If you'll look at the wiring diagram in this manual on page 32 there's a pretty good wiring diagram. Look at the "Filter Pump" relay and notice where it says Line 1 & Line 2 going into the bottom of the relay. That comes from a pair of the breakers below. There's also a diagram on page 25 of exactly how to wire it to a pump. For 120 volt items just use one side of one of the relay. So a wire will come from one breaker to the line side of the relay and a wire will go out of the load side of the relay to the item.
    Here's a down and dirty one for you. I assumed a 230 volt pump. I don't show the grounds but they'll need to be ran from the ground bar to each piece of equipment.

    [attachment=0haigq76]EasyTouch.jpg[/attachmenthaigq76]
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Dave, thank you very much. This really helps a LOT.

    As I mentioned, though, I'm not an electrician, so I hope you won't mind if I try to verify a few things JIC...?
    1. The pump, heater and inverter are indeed 240V, so I'm presuming the diag at bottom-right on P32 of the manual that you pointed to will indeed be the proper wiring into the EasyTouch for my needs? If so, I understand that.
    2. You show 2 hot wires from the breaker to the relay for the pump and one for the lights. Am I correct in presuming that this is how I basically need to view 240V vs 120V (i.e., simply connect any other 240V unit - like the heater & inverter - to an empty relay just like the pump is here, and other 120V items - ozonator - just like the "lights")?
    3. When you say "the grounds need to be run from the ground bar to each piece of equipment, is that the "Ground Bus Bar" that runs horizontally just to the left of the transformers, or the vertical bar where you show the lights connected to?
    4. That same PDF offers a list of compatible breakers, which I will have to buy from the States. Don't want to buy the wrong item, so, are 1-pole breakers all I need here, or, for ex., 2-pole or duplex for the 240V equip?

    My next step is to order the breakers I need based on your answer to 4, and then get all this info to the electrician and see if he has any final qualms that I can't answer from what you've already taught me. Again, your assistance is truly appreciated!
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    1) Correct, You'll wire the 240V power like the diagram indicates.

    2) Yes, for 240 volt equipment you'll wire it from a double pole breaker to the relay and for 120 volt equipment you'll wire it from a single pole breaker to the relay.

    3) Yes, that's the grouund bus bar as you state.

    4) You'll need double pole breakers for all the 240 volt equipment and single pole breakers for all the 120 volt equipment. Given your situation I'd probably order a couple of spares to have on hand. (Note: you can tie matching adjacent single pole breaker handles together and make a double pole out of them. It's not ideal but it will work.)
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Bama Rambler, don't think I said thank you for the last confirmation(s)... so, thanks! (Oh, and congrats on the Tide!)
    Based on your clarifications, I was able to local a constant source of the 1P and 2P breakers from the States, but, after "okay'ing" those units, the electrician here now has a final concern regarding the capacity of the relays (whether, rated at 25A, they can handle the 30A heater and 40A inverter, or if there are larger capacity relays required/available). Hopefully, Pentair will answer this, but being my only "pro" contact, thought I'd toss this by you if you happen to be online this weekend. Best regards.
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    You never want to exceed the rating of the relay but you shouldn't be powering the heater directly from the relay. You should only be powering the control circuit through the relay. I assume the inverter should work the same way.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    So even though the wiring is routed "through" the relay, it doesn't actually carry and isn't affected by that load? Appreciated!
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    You'll have to make sure you're not switching the load of those items. It's not a given as I don't know how the electrician has them wired.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Hmmm... here's where my lack of knowledge of electrical wiring causes the most problem. Not sure what "switching the load" would entail, but I hope the electrician will understand a literal translation of that. Anyway, I've instructed him to wire exactly as you indicated in the diagram, so hopefully that will be sufficient. Thanks again.
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

  19. Back To Top    #19
    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    The load is the main feed of electricity to the main power consuming portion of the device. The control portion controls the unit. Think of a battery powered thermostat controlling a heat pump in your house. The thermostat does not need a lot of power, it controls the relay that controls power fed to the pump.

    What you want to control is equivalent to the thermostat.

    Sent via Tapatalk...
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: A "Help!" topic as my first post

    Just a shout-out thanks to BamaRambler, 4knights and UnderWaterVanya.
    Took awhile to get the right breakers, ended up needing contactors for units over 25A, etc., etc., etc., but the "model" system worked and we're starting to use that layout on all current and future installs. This will make for a much nicer/easier experience for the user in terms of operating the pool equipment. I still need to figure out certain software possibilities on EZtouch besides the basic setup, but I wanted to thank you three for your assistance!
    Hope you're all having a great holiday season!
    Basic setup
    Pool: Square, approx 8'x18' (2.5x5.5m), 50 in. (127cm) depth, 2600 gal (approx. 9850 L)
    Filtration: Pentair Whisperflo 3/4hp (240V, 15A breaker), Pentair 75 sq.ft (6.9sq.m) filter, Coates 5.5kW heater (240V, 30A breaker), Purezone ozonator (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Water flow control: ACTech inverter (240V, 40A breaker), Electragear-Baldor 5hp gearmotor (power from inverter), digital timer/speed adjustment display (power from inverter)
    Standard accessories: Starburst LED lights (plug into outlet from 110V, 15A breaker)
    Optional accessories: 1hp jet system (jacuzzi-type environment) (electrical specs n/a)

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