Shopping for a used AGP... questions

[y_not]

I have decided that I would really like a bigger pool, being that IGP isn't an option for the foreseeable future, I'll be going with an AGP type.

I have a relatively massive yard, so that's really not an issue, but I have some questions on shopping for one so I don't get taken since I'm buying used.

Sorry they're a lot of questions, but I kept 'em pretty short. You don't need to answer them all at once either.

1. How old can a liner be before it's too old to drain, fold and move. Then successfully set back up without it ripping, tearing or not stretching back into place?

1a. How do I tell, is there a way to tell this before hand if the liner is in good shape? Elasticity and stretch wise or what not.
You should be able to tell what my climate is by my previous posts as well as my location info.

2. If the liner is shot, about how much do they run for the bigger professional AGPs? Such as Hayward, Doughboy, or what not.

3. I'd really like to be able to have some sort of deep end, but it looks to me like that's only possible if it's an expanding liner an hasn't been cut, or they already have a deep end and I would have to match that depth at max. Is that about right?

3a. I have seen a few sellers that have the liner excess tucked in under the rim. They say it's an expandable liner, is that OK or does that ruin it?

4. I have looked at plenty of posts showing the build process, unfortunately nothing about the actual bonding (grounding) procedure, just talk about it, no actual steps or how-to's. Is bonding really necessary so long as the pump is on a GFCI breaker?

5. I haven't seen any specifics on what a cove really is and how you do it it, let alone what it's for. Although I have read a lot of talk about it, again no specifics and still lost there. HELP please??

5a. It seems there are several kinds, just building it into the dirt, IE some sort of dirt/sand shelf around the inner perimeter on the liner side. The other kind being some sort of rubber or hard foam/styro, maybe even plastic things. If that's the case, what am I looking for when I buy the pool, do I need to inspect these before plopping down cash?

6. It's wintertime, I'd like to buy one during the off season as I'm assuming most sellers will want to let go of it for less during this time. But I'm thinking it's actually going to be a lot more work to inspect, test & ultimately take it down during our cold and potentially snowy, icy winter months. Do you think I'm going to pay about the same now as I would in the spring when it's warmer?

6a. Obviously I can't outright test the pump and filter if the pool isn't up. Any ideas how I might go about that?
If not, then probably a bad idea to buy it during the winter months, as a large part of the purchase is the filter+pump so I hate to blow money on something they swear works, knowing full well with my luck I'll get it home, set it up and something is jacked. Seriously, that's my luck. HAHA
The durn things know I'm a tech, so they break on me. LOL

7. What brand is a good brand for quality and the sides not falling over, bursting or whatever else can go wrong?

8. Any other gotchas I haven't really thought of that I can watch for while shopping and inspecting?

Thank you so much!!
I look forward to your wonderful and wise input on the matter.

y_not

 

[GranJan]

I can't help you with much except the liner. We just installed an above ground pool in Aug...used it 1 month & had to remove it because it was against our HOA rules. It was a 12 x 24 Doughboy. We gave it to my niece & her husband in exchange for them removing it. Even though the liner was new, the pool place said it would be very difficult to match up the holes for the skimmer & return. They said it would be best to patch the holes, rotate the liner & cut new holes. They also didn't recommend storing the liner until next spring. They had pity on us & gave us a scrap of liner to use for a patch. They also said they had a discontinued pattern liner they'd sell for $200 to my niece in case they decided not to try using the old liner & would let them return it if they ended up not needing it. I tried to find a price for Doughboy liners to see if they really gave us a good deal but was unable to find prices. You can find prices for other brands online. I'm sure you're wanting a much bigger pool than we had so the liner will be more expensive. But since it wasn't certain if our 1 month old liner could be reused & needed to be installed immediately, I certainly wouldn't plan on being able to use an older one, especially if you're wanting it to stretch for a deep end. I'd just plan on buying a new one. Good luck!

 

[kimkats]

Cove- it can be made of sand BUT I think the foam is better. What the cove does is fills in the area where the walls meet the bottom/sand. In my eyes it helps in many way-with a cove there is no way for the liner to find a way under the bottom track if something happens to cause a washout just outside the pool.

The cove helps with cleaning as well as it makes the liner set in a soft curve instead of a shape angle where the wall meets the bottom.

Kim

 

[zea3]

I'll answer what I can inside your post. My answers in red.

I have decided that I would really like a bigger pool, being that IGP isn't an option for the foreseeable future, I'll be going with an AGP type.

I have a relatively massive yard, so that's really not an issue, but I have some questions on shopping for one so I don't get taken since I'm buying used.

Sorry they're a lot of questions, but I kept 'em pretty short. You don't need to answer them all at once either.

1. How old can a liner be before it's too old to drain, fold and move. Then successfully set back up without it ripping, tearing or not stretching back into place?

1a. How do I tell, is there a way to tell this before hand if the liner is in good shape? Elasticity and stretch wise or what not.
You should be able to tell what my climate is by my previous posts as well as my location info.

2. If the liner is shot, about how much do they run for the bigger professional AGPs? Such as Hayward, Doughboy, or what not.
It is best to go ahead and replace the liner. If the temperature in your area is already below 60 degrees on a daily basis the liner will become more brittle once it is drained. Odds are if the pool has a brand new liner they are not looking to sell anyway. Matching the openings will be difficult and you won't know if it is going to seal water tight around those openings until the pool is filled. Much easier to just buy a new liner. Openings for skimmers and returns usually are cut after the fittings are installed.

3. I'd really like to be able to have some sort of deep end, but it looks to me like that's only possible if it's an expanding liner an hasn't been cut, or they already have a deep end and I would have to match that depth at max. Is that about right?
You would definitely need a new liner if you want a deep end. It would be more difficult to try to match a depth and slope on an existing liner. Remember, the base must be hard packed and stable before sand or foam padding go down. You can either get an expanding liner, or a custom fit liner. A custom fit liner will be more expensive.

3a. I have seen a few sellers that have the liner excess tucked in under the rim. They say it's an expandable liner, is that OK or does that ruin it?
Overlap liners can have the excess rolled up and taped under the top rails without damaging the liner. If the overlap doesn't bother you then leave it as is. Just don't cut off the excess or you may find the edge slipping under the rail over time. Also you can dish out a round pool to make it deeper or you can make 1/2 deeper, but the shape and size of the pool will limit how deep you can go and how steep the sides will be. It is easier to create a deep end in an oval pool.

4. I have looked at plenty of posts showing the build process, unfortunately nothing about the actual bonding (grounding) procedure, just talk about it, no actual steps or how-to's. Is bonding really necessary so long as the pump is on a GFCI breaker?
GFCI breakers can and do fail. I would have the pool bonded. Search for bonding on TFP (google search at bottom left of every page) and you should find plenty of how to info. Or you can always start a new thread about you specific situation if needed.

5. I haven't seen any specifics on what a cove really is and how you do it it, let alone what it's for. Although I have read a lot of talk about it, again no specifics and still lost there. HELP please??
The cove goes around the inside base of the pool. It is a "curb" made of sand or styrofoam that prevents the liner from being pinched under the bottom rails. Pools are very heavy when full and the ground will become more compacted over time by the weight of the water. The cove will prevent the liner from migrating under the bottom rail as the ground compacts. It also makes the floor easier to clean as there are no sharp corners for algae to gain a foothold.

5a. It seems there are several kinds, just building it into the dirt, IE some sort of dirt/sand shelf around the inner perimeter on the liner side. The other kind being some sort of rubber or hard foam/styro, maybe even plastic things. If that's the case, what am I looking for when I buy the pool, do I need to inspect these before plopping down cash?
Foam coves have a sticky back to adhere them to the wall of the pool. It is not likely they will come off in one piece after years of use. Google foam cove and you will get a lot of info about retailers and cost.

6. It's wintertime, I'd like to buy one during the off season as I'm assuming most sellers will want to let go of it for less during this time. But I'm thinking it's actually going to be a lot more work to inspect, test & ultimately take it down during our cold and potentially snowy, icy winter months. Do you think I'm going to pay about the same now as I would in the spring when it's warmer?My personal opinion is they will be more likely to put an unwanted pool up for sale in the spring, when they are making plans for spring planting/landscaping. It will be easier to test equipment, prep the ground and install the liner in warmer temps as well.

6a. Obviously I can't outright test the pump and filter if the pool isn't up. Any ideas how I might go about that?
If not, then probably a bad idea to buy it during the winter months, as a large part of the purchase is the filter+pump so I hate to blow money on something they swear works, knowing full well with my luck I'll get it home, set it up and something is jacked. Seriously, that's my luck. HAHA
The durn things know I'm a tech, so they break on me. LOL

7. What brand is a good brand for quality and the sides not falling over, bursting or whatever else can go wrong?
Its not the brand so much as the condition of the pool you should look for. Make sure there is no visible rust where the walls meet the bottom rails, no visible creases or large dents in the wall. Make sure all the top rails and caps are intact. Ask if they have any of the documentation that came with the pool and equipment. That can help you identify replacement parts if needed. If you look at any doughboys, they use proprietary parts, so to use another pump or skimmer may require some modification to the pool.

8. Any other gotchas I haven't really thought of that I can watch for while shopping and inspecting?

Thank you so much!!
I look forward to your wonderful and wise input on the matter.

y_not

 

[dmanb2b]

Great advice so far! Just to add on bonding...not only is it likely a code requirement, but may save a life, so whether it is code required or not, I would recommend bonding the pool and is very simple to do with about $20-$30 in bonding lugs and copper wire.

 

[msgtdan]

I got mine used one for the price of removing it in Sept 2011. I don't think they wanted to deal with it over the winter and not sure they had even opened it. At that price I figured I could replace the pump/motor. I planned on a new liner from the beginning. I did have to have the seal and impeller replaced but the pool store only charged parts as I brought it in, under $50 if I remember right. I removed the 250#s of sand from the filter, put it in old dog food sacks. I put the old sand back in, backwashed and rinsed it well and it's working fine. It took the wife and I a full day to remove the pool, with a bit more muscle it probably would have went faster. Took about 3 hours to pump the water out with a rental pump. While that was going on we packed up all the accessories, including a rubbermaid pool box, disassembled the top rail and pulled the pavers the pump and filter were sitting on. By the end of the day I was beat, barely got the old liner cut into manageable pieces and loaded.

I used Searchtempest to search surrounding areas for potential good deals on used pools. I missed out on 2-3 free for removal deals because of my schedule at the time. If the pool is already disassembled it would make it easier to inspect, but I'd make sure they have the documentation for the pool so you can count all the little pieces to be sure they are there. Mine didn't have any documentation so I counted the pieces before dis-assembly and then again during loading. Mine had 19 bottom tracks, 19 top tracks, 19 uprights, 19 rails with 2 piece connector covers, 19 1/2 pavers, 10 full pavers, 38 top/bottom plates. Screws and bolts I put in separate zip lock bags and labeled with location.

 

[y_not]

I'm on my phone, so can't do a proper reply to everyone's posts. But I did want to say thanks for all the great info you have provided. Sorry I didn't reply sooner.

On to my question, I found a 28ft round Hayward Esther Williams pool for 1/2 a Benjamin.
I was looking at liners and would ultimately like an expandable liner, as I'd like a deep end. However, it appears this pool uses a beaded liner. Can I still do this and what am I looking for?

Thx ya'll!

 

[msgtdan]

Not sure for certain about Esther Williams pools but most pools can take an overlap expandable liner. You may have to remove the track for the bead. You'll also need the coving strips that hold the overlap in place. I'm glad I went with the expandable liner, not the best install but it works for us.

 

[y_not]

Thanks for the info.
Also, what are "coving strips"?
I presume they are some sort of clip that goes over the liner and the top edge of the pool wall?

Being that it's disassembled, any idea if a manual can be found for this thing, one where I can use it to verify all the parts are present?

Thx.

 

[linen]

Yep, they are called "coping strips" and you need enough to go around your pool, they basically go over the overlap of the liner on to the wall edge...can be seen here: http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Spla...Round-Above-Ground-Pool-44-pack/COPING-28.htm. 44 pieces of 2ft sections for a 28' pool. Most stores have them.

Being that it's disassembled, any idea if a manual can be found for this thing, one where I can use it to verify all the parts are present?

That's too bad it is disassembled. You could count parts, there should be the same number of rails, uprights, bottom track, top track, foot caps(if it has them), and top caps.

 

[msgtdan]

I presume they are some sort of clip that goes over the liner and the top edge of the pool wall?

Correct. Most online liner suppliers will carry them.

Not sure about finding a manual. There maybe one available online somewhere. I dated my used pool using Google maps or earth and the historical feature. I could actually see where they had leveled for the pool prior to installation.

 

[y_not]

Not sure about finding a manual. There maybe one available online somewhere. I dated my used pool using Google maps or earth and the historical feature. I could actually see where they had leveled for the pool prior to installation.

WOW! I'm an IT guy and I didn't even know you could do that, the history part. Then again, Google's "UI" leaves a lot to be desired on most products. Oh well, they work and they work well.
I'll have to check that out. HEHE

They "say" it's 8 years old, so I'm assuming 2005 and they paid $5k fo it new. Don't know if that included the sand filter + pump or not.

I have gathered from watching YT videos on pump rebuilds that you can briefly fire up a pool pump, dry, so long as you don't run it long. Just long enough to hear the condition of the bearings and such.
I know the water flow "cools" the pump motor and bearing shaft under normal operation.

Is this OK when I'm shopping for a used pump? Simply for purposes of price negotiation only.
As I'm most definitely going to buy that Hayward 2-speed PowerFlo Matrix ya'll recommended.
That is, unless I find some amazing deal on a good used 2-speed I can't live without.

 

[y_not]

Yep, they are called "coping strips" and you need enough to go around your pool, they basically go over the overlap of the liner on to the wall edge...can be seen here: http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/Spla...Round-Above-Ground-Pool-44-pack/COPING-28.htm. 44 pieces of 2ft sections for a 28' pool. Most stores have them.

Awesome, thanks for the link. Not too badly priced, all things considered.

Back in October, zea3 wrote:

Overlap liners can have the excess rolled up and taped under the top rails without damaging the liner. If the overlap doesn't bother you then leave it as is. Just don't cut off the excess or you may find the edge slipping under the rail over time.

Can you clarify, as I'm unsure if I can actually fold it and or trim off the excess to tuck it out of sight so it looks nice. Will it slip if I trim it then fold it, or do I just fold it "all" under those coping strips, or what?
I think what zea3 is saying, is simply not to leave it hanging over the sides, but trimmed, without tucking it. As it'll slip. But then wouldn't it slip even if you tuck it? Hrmmmm..
I'd like to do something with it, as having it hanging over the sides is pretty tacky in my opinion.
I have seen photos where they have done that with their overlap liners and it just looks baaaddd.

Being that it's disassembled, any idea if a manual can be found for this thing, one where I can use it to verify all the parts are present?

That's too bad it is disassembled. You could count parts, there should be the same number of rails, uprights, bottom track, top track, foot caps(if it has them), and top caps.

From what I have gathered, it is indeed ideal to be able to actually take it down so you know how it goes back together when you set it up at home. But like I have said in many of my posts, this isn't "pool country", so the pickin's are slim. With that said, so long as it's in good shape, I can't see a reason I should pass up on it. But I'm of course all ears. :albino:

So just count them all and so long as I get an equal matching number between them all, then that should be good, huh?
Any idea where I can find example pictures of what these parts all look like? I'm a very, very visual person. In fact, so visual that I don't even need directions if I can watch someone do it, then I can do it myself with maybe 1 or 2 questions, if that. Even weeks, or months later. Seeing pictures of how things are done, if they're good photos, I don't even usually need directions there either.
I have a pretty good idea of what all those parts are and likely what they look like, but I have never actually assembled one or taken one apart. So hence wanting to be sure.

Thanks again everyone!!

 

[linen]

A quick on and off on the dry pump shouldn't hurt anything. I do it all the time to check for seizing....but only a quick on/off.

 

[y_not]

A quick on and off on the dry pump shouldn't hurt anything. I do it all the time to check for seizing....but only a quick on/off.

As soon as it hits full RPM, cut it. That kind of "quick"?
Or quicker? Like when we used to play with the light switches as kids & mom & dad would yell at us to knock it off... you'll cause a fire!! LOL

 

[msgtdan]

A quick on and off on the dry pump shouldn't hurt anything. I do it all the time to check for seizing....but only a quick on/off.

I did this with mine when I disassembled the pool and it checked ok. Once I got it home and tried to set it up on my ring pool for a test it popped the breaker. Turned out it was a bad seal and the impeller didn't have the brass insert the new ones do. Had to take it to the local pool store to be repaired. No labor charge since I brought it in, total repair was under $50 for the seal and impeller.

 

[y_not]

A quick on and off on the dry pump shouldn't hurt anything. I do it all the time to check for seizing....but only a quick on/off.

I did this with mine when I disassembled the pool and it checked ok. Once I got it home and tried to set it up on my ring pool for a test it popped the breaker. Turned out it was a bad seal and the impeller didn't have the brass insert the new ones do. Had to take it to the local pool store to be repaired. No labor charge since I brought it in, total repair was under $50 for the seal and impeller.

Weirdness, so it worked fine at the pool owner's site, but when you got it home it took a dump?
Was it maybe because water was now entering the previously dry motor through the bad seal & shorting it out?
It was what, like 10 years old?
BTW, what's the brass insert do? Is it some sort of shaft stabilizer?

Yeah, you mentioned this $50 fix in your previous post. I meant to ask you about that.
How on earth did you get free labor, just for bringing it in? Do you live in Pleasantville, or wherever Ward, June, Wally & Theodore "The Beaver" Cleaver live??

 

[y_not]

I found a parts list here:
Esther Williams AG Classic Round Parts List

Master list of parts lists for Esther Williams pools is here: Master List

I found the pool assembly and installation manual here:
Monument/EW AG Round Extruded Wall Pool


Hopefully these will help someone out who searches for them down the road.

Sadly, there isn't a total count of bolts & screws type hardware. Just listed as bags, not how many in a bag or anything. Oh well, if there ends up being some missing, I imagine I can find suitable replacements at a hardware store. IE. I'm assuming they're standard sheet metal parts, nothing special about them.

In regards to bonding, the manual says the following, which I though interesting.
"BONDING CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED BY ATTACHING A #8 COPPER WIRE FROM THE
BONDING LUG ON THE PUMP, TO AN UNPAINTED METAL SURFACE ON THE POOL WALL OR BOTTOM CLIP"

Doesn't it have to be wrapped all the way around the pool and bonded at various points, attached to the pump, then back to the a ground lug directly on the house wiring?

Still curious about the overlap liner. Also, do those go to X various depths for hoppers, or is that only an expandable liner?

 

[CB]

[/quote]Yeah, you mentioned this $50 fix in your previous post. I meant to ask you about that.
How on earth did you get free labor, just for bringing it in? Do you live in Pleasantville, or wherever Ward, June, Wally & Theodore "The Beaver" Cleaver live?? [/quote]

I think what Dan is referring to is that since the pool company didn't have to send a tech. out,there wasn't a service call charge and since they didn't have to disconnect any piping there wasn't a labor charge for that either.

 

[CB]

Quoteoesn't it have to be wrapped all the way around the pool and bonded at various points, attached to the pump, then back to the a ground lug directly on the house wiring?
Don't get grounding and equipotential bonding mixed up,you want to bond your pool walls.Your equipotential bond wire should never be attached to your ground lug at your electric panel.Most jurisdictions if they require equipotential bonding,want a continious loop of bare #8 AWG copper wire buried 4-6" deep and 18"-24" from the pool wall, (attached to the pool uprights or bottom track in 4 equally spaced locations) your water bond, your pump bond and any other pool equipment that requires bonding including ladders and hand rails (if they are metal)must be incorperated in your bond loop.The lugs that will be buried must be designed for direct burial,they should have a DB stamped into the body of the lug.Your water bond must be a min. of 9 sq. inches

Basically you run your bare copper wire around your pool starting at your pump bonding lug and ending at your water bond.For me my water bond is a 1-1/2" stainless steel nipple 6" long with a stainless steel coupling on the suction side of my pump.