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Thread: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

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    Sunny Blues's Avatar
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    1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Hi!

    We are closing our pool this Wednesday, first time ever doing it ourselves, and we have some questions. (16x32 in ground, 3' shallow - 6' deep, with the pump/filter/heater 10 feet from the skimmer and up to 36 feet from the farthest return jet. We're using a 6.5hp Shop Vac to blow out the return lines and main drain. Chicago suburbs - can have cold winters.)


    • Our pool company in past closings must have drained the heater, the pump, and the filter (after removing the plugs,) and then they must have put the plugs back into their respective holes. Is that o.k. for us to do it that way? Jason says he takes his out and stores them, but what does he do about the open holes?

      [/*:m:2fr4k14o]
    • After draining lines, should I put the sand filter on backwash and blow any water out? If so, for how long?

      [/*:m:2fr4k14o]
    • Do you have to put antifreeze in the main drain. If so, how do you get it into the main drain? I was going to blow out the main drain and then quickly close the valve. Is that good enough?

      [/*:m:2fr4k14o]
    • Are there any other locations that I need to pour antifreeze into other than the skimmer and the three return jets?[/*:m:2fr4k14o]


    Also, I would feel better if someone would look at our chem levels and let me know if they see anything of concern:

    pH 8.0
    FC 13
    CC 0
    TA-c 121 (150 w/out CA correction)
    CYA 80
    borates 45-50
    water temp between 54 degrees?

    We added 2 gallons of the 8.25% concentrated clorox an hour ago to ensure we hit our shock level before Wednesday afternoon. We'll add the polyquat Wed morning so it can circulate a few hours first.

    Thanks for all your help!
    :) 32x16 In Ground 18K vinyl; Hayward S244T sand filter; Hayward H250IDL2 Heater; Hayward .75HP Super Pump; Booster Pump 5060 & Viper; Hayward CL200 feeder

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    My understanding is that you are best off letting FC drop to normal before adding polyquat... YMMV.

    -sent with Tapatalk 2
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    What was your pH before you raised the FC?

    I leave my plugs out too. I store them in the pump basket. I just leave the holes open.

    You can blow the water out but I always just open the drain plug and let it drain out. Put the multiport on winterize when you do that.

    Pumping antifreeze into the MD is a challenge. If you blow it out good there's not much need in adding antifreeze to it. You could rig up a way to pump it in there but you're most likely fine without it.

    When winterizing, just raise the FC and add the polyquat right before covering. You don't want to let the FC come back to normal. That would defeat the whole purpose in raising it before closing in the first place.

    We don't adjust the TA for CYA, so 150 is high. I don't know that you need to adjust it. You don't list what your CH is but if it's high then I'd consider lowering the TA before closing just to help prevent any possible scaling issues over the winter.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    When winterizing, just raise the FC and add the polyquat right before covering. You don't want to let the FC come back to normal. That would defeat the whole purpose in raising it before closing in the first place.
    That doesn't seem to fit what the manufacturer recommends... this post from chem geek is what I am basing this on. The way I read this - Buckman views the 5-10 to be shock level - I figured BBB'ers would sub in their appropriate shock level and then let it get down below the 5-10 range (or whatever your minimum is) before adding the polyquat - but perhaps I misunderstand this post? The "get below" part is due to the language saying to wait a couple of days - without mention of maintaining the 5-10 level. Most people view shock as a single event outside of BBB adherents - so I figured the Buckman folks were saying - take it to shock, let it drift down two days - add polyquat... .

    I do know that Buckman says that while chlorine will break up the polyquat's polymer into shorter strands - these are still considered effective. I wish there were more data available on this particular combination of shocking and then adding polyquat for winterization.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    The BBB method doesn't fit a lot of what mfg's recommend.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    The BBB method doesn't fit a lot of what mfg's recommend.
    LOL - I knew you might say that. BUT this is also chem geeks best answer for what works with Polyquat. In the absence of data saying we should do it different from the manufacturer's recommendation I don't see how we would recommend something different. I have poured over multiple threads and not found any clear consensus on the use of Polyquat.

    With CYA/FC, Pucks, CalHypo, "shock" bags, etc. we have good empirical and experimental data to drive the recommendations - with Polyquat... we have little but word of mouth and the manufacturer's data. Chem geek has also said that Buckman is one of the "good one's" unlike many chemical suppliers to this industry - forthright with data and communicative.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    What was your pH before you raised the FC?
    It was 7.7 throughout August, 7.8 throughout September, and my husband had added mini shock doses to raise FC to 13ppm a couple of days ago - ph was 8.0 right before I did a shock to 24ppm. I did that because our CYA is 80 and 13ppm isn't the shock dose for that high of a CYA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    You can blow the water out but I always just open the drain plug and let it drain out. Put the multiport on winterize when you do that.
    We don't have a "winterize" setting on our filter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    When winterizing, just raise the FC and add the polyquat right before covering. You don't want to let the FC come back to normal. That would defeat the whole purpose in raising it before closing in the first place.
    That's what I thought, see my next posted reply....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    We don't adjust the TA for CYA, so 150 is high.
    Why not?
    (Isn't the true TA one that is adjusted for the level of Cyanuric Acid? Since our CYA is 80, I'm suppose to subtract 36% of that from my TA for the most accurate reading.)

    We are going to add a gallon of muratic acid today to lower our pH a bit, so that might bring the TA down a tad too....we'll see.
    :) 32x16 In Ground 18K vinyl; Hayward S244T sand filter; Hayward H250IDL2 Heater; Hayward .75HP Super Pump; Booster Pump 5060 & Viper; Hayward CL200 feeder

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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Thanks for all the help you guys! As for the polyquat....I based what I thought I was suppose to do on the following:
    pool-school/closing_in_ground_pool
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    Shock - Two or three days before closing, I bring the pool up to shock level and hold it there until FC holds overnight (which it generally does right off on the first night). Then I let the chlorine level fall about half way back to normal levels, typically another day and a half.
    PolyQuat - Add the startup (maximum) dose of PolyQuat according to package directions. I give it half an hour to mix with the pump running before starting to drain. While I am waiting for that I proceed with the next three steps.
    Post subject: Re: Closing an in ground pool Posted: October 1st, 2011, 6:18 pm
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    I have never seen a winterizing kit that was worth buying. The only thing we recommend doing is raising the FC level and adding polyquat algaecide.
    Quote Originally Posted by songebob
    When do you normally add the polyquat? At the same time when adding chlorine to shock, or do we wait till FC drops to half then add the polyquat?
    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion
    songebob, welcome to TFP!It isn't crucial when you add the polyquat. I like to leave it till nearly the last minute, leaving just enough time for it to get mixed in before the pool is closed. But doing it a day or even two earlier is fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chem Geek
    This post gives the recommendation from Buckman Labs, the historical makers of Polyquat in the U.S., about shocking first and then later adding Polyquat making sure to thoroughly circulate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B
    What are the implications of not letting it "fall about half way back to Normal level"? The Polyquat won't behave ideally?Minor time constaint, no big deal, I can wait, however, if I can proceed at a higher FC then that would help in this situation. But I'll do what is best.Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by Chem Geek
    High levels of chlorine and PolyQuat result in faster chlorine oxidation of the PolyQuat. This lowers the chlorine level and breaks up the PolyQuat into smaller pieces. These pieces can still be effective, but the loss in chlorine is wasteful. It's going to happen anyway, but at normal chlorine and PolyQuat levels it takes a lot longer (especially as the water gets colder).
    Post subject: Re: I am a stranger at the pool store Posted: August 8th, 2008, 5:36 pm
    Quote Originally Posted by Chem Geek
    I wrote to Buckman Labs (the makers of most PolyQuat products) about this a while ago and the following is their recommendation on how to use the product for closing a pool: "In our recommended approach for winterization, the pool should be "shocked" with about 5-10 ppm chlorine to destroy any lingering oxidant demand, to remove any residual ammonia or chloramine, etc. After a couple of days, adjust the pH back to 7.2-7.6 and add Polyquat 60 at the maximum rate allowed by the label. This approach allows you to have the maximum benefit from both chemicals. One more point about winterizing: after the addition of Polyquat 60, be sure to keep the circulation pump on for at least 24 hours to make sure that the Polyquat 60 is thoroughly distributed throughout the pool." The latter point about keeping the pump running for a while has to do with PolyQuat 60 being quite viscous (thick and slow to dissolve/disperse). Richard
    So, we shocked early so that we have time for the chlorine level to come down a bit, but weren't overly concerned with getting it that low. We were going to add the polyquat a few hours before closing so that it had more time to circulate; adding it any earlier would take away from the time we have available for the FC to come down a bit more.
    :) 32x16 In Ground 18K vinyl; Hayward S244T sand filter; Hayward H250IDL2 Heater; Hayward .75HP Super Pump; Booster Pump 5060 & Viper; Hayward CL200 feeder

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    That last post is what I am talking about - there is a lot of contradictory info, similar info expressed in multiple ways, etc.

    The most confusing is the 24 hour pump recommendation from chem geek and the "run the pump a few hours" recommendation from someone else (Jason?).

    In any case - I'd love it if we had clearer data around the options. I'm going to try to use the Shock, let it drop some, mix for a day - method - I think...
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Thanks UnderWater!

    Yes, I agree which is why I tried to list all the pertinent posts that I found about it in one place. I don't have the luxury of extra hours to circulate the polyquat so I'm trying to find a happy medium between the two concerns. Luckily, we had a sunny and 70 degree day today so our FC fell to 16. :P I'm going to add the polyquat earlier in the morning to give it at least 8 hours to circulate first. I'm thinking the Buckman Labs recommendation is aimed toward non-BBB pool owners and what all of their chemical balances would most likely be. Since the other kinds of chlorine advice from manufacturers and pool stores runs lower than what a BBB pool would need, and because we balance all our chemicals, including CYA and borates, etc., I'm guessing halfway to the normal chlorine level is the right way to go for a BBB pool owner. I'm pretty much there at 16 since CYA is so high.

    After the muratic acid dose, our pH is now 7.5, our TA dropped to 98 (125 without correcting for Cyn Acid)
    Our CH is between 250-400 - tough test with cold water - fading endpoint with purple - but definitely blue by 375/400
    I appreciate the replies that considered our numbers and got us thinking.

    Two more questions we still need help on:
    After removing the plugs and storing them (from the heater, pump, filter)... what do we do about the open holes?
    Are there any other locations that I need to pour antifreeze into other than the skimmer and the three return jets?

    Thanks so much for keeping an eye on my thread!
    :) 32x16 In Ground 18K vinyl; Hayward S244T sand filter; Hayward H250IDL2 Heater; Hayward .75HP Super Pump; Booster Pump 5060 & Viper; Hayward CL200 feeder

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Re: open holes on equipment
    I think I recall some kind of lube was recommended.

    -sent with Tapatalk 2
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    The winterize setting is just setting the multiport between two settings so the pressure is taken off the gasket and opens all sections of the valve.

    I don't do anything about the open holes. I just clean them out next spring and put the plugs/caps back in/on them. If any of them are metal, you could clean them and put a little lube in them to ensure they don't get some corrosion.

    You might want to pour some antifreeze in the cleaner line just as insurance.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    Thank you Dave!!!
    Great advice, quick replies (you guys rock) and I feel completely prepared now. whew!
    :) 32x16 In Ground 18K vinyl; Hayward S244T sand filter; Hayward H250IDL2 Heater; Hayward .75HP Super Pump; Booster Pump 5060 & Viper; Hayward CL200 feeder

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    Re: 1st Closing - Questions re plugs - antifreeze placement

    I think you guys might be overthinkng this a little.
    Just add enough bleach to bring the FC up to shock level for your CYA, then if you want, add some poly 60 and close her up. It will be what it will be come April. The key to a clear pool in the spring is to close later when the water is below 60, and open early. Mine is closed for 6 months and in 5 years, ive never opened to anythng other than a clear, basically clean pool. Last year i had no FC left when i opened, year before i had 2 ppm. so YMMV
    14,000 gallon IG, Vinyl. Hayward 3/4 hp superpump, Penatair IC40 SWCG, Pentair automation, Hayward sand filter, Aqua Comfort heat pump, Hayward 400k Lo-Nox LP heater.

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