Sebring FL pool recovery - cleaning a total mess

[SebringDon]

My first question for the forum. Is it OK to run a filter without a cartridge in place to promote circulation in the early stages of a pool recovery?

I've got a Clean and Clear 150, and lots of gunk in the bottom of a pool that I "inherited" when I bought this house. Because I've got things stirred up from netting, the filter cartridge gets filthy fast, and the pressure heads north.

I've been dumping in chlorine to keep the algae killed off while I clean, and I'm ready to use some pool floc to get better visibility of the water. So far, I've been running the pump for a while to circulate the chlorine, but I'm constantly having to stop and clean the cartridge, as often as every 20 minutes.

At the stage I'm in, I'd rather get a lot of the crud out of the pool manually, rather than through the cartridge. Is it OK to run the pump and filter without a cartridge in in, just to circulate the water to spread the floc around, as long as I have the skimmer basket in place to catch big stuff?

Oh, and I can't do a pumpout and scrub because the water table here is very,very high.

Thanks!

P.S. Also, can somebody tell me how to determine my flow rate based on the info in my sig?

 

[JohnT]

Welcome to the forum!

If your system will operate without the filter cartridge in place, you can certainly do so to help kill the algae. At some point you'll need to rely on the filter, and it would be handy to have an extra cartridge so you can clean one while the other is in use. You might read up on algae control in these articles:

Defeating Algae

Turning Your Green Swamp Back into a Sparkling Oasis

Shocking Your Pool

The bottom line is that you have to drop the hammer on algae and stay on it, because it can reproduce faster than you can control it otherwise.

Good luck!

 

[duraleigh]

Ok to run without the filter but I doubt the floc will do as good a job as your cartridge will do. Yes, it is a pain to constantly clean the filter but it is simply doing it's job....getting dirt out of the pool.

Assuming the floc settles stuff to the bottom, you would probably do better with the pump off anyway. Do you plan on vacuuming to waste if the floc works?

 

[SebringDon]

Thanks, John. I've got a new cartridge on order, as the old one isn't in the best of shape. I also got some cartridge cleaner and I'm going to give it a reallllly good cleaning while it's out of the filter. I've figured out I've got to stay on top of the algae, and I've been working the chlorine heavy. I used a submersible pump to get a lot of crud out, but now I'm at the handwork stage for the rest. I'll read the algae control articles to see if I've missed anything.

Duraleigh, I flocced once already, with the cart in place, and it cleared the water right up, which is why I could tell I needed to rent a submersible pump. :-D I'm ready to give it another shot to see what I've got left.

...and you've raised another question for me. I have two options on the pressure side of my filter, and it's currently set to recycle. The waste line goes back into the ground, and I haven't been able to find where (or if) it surfaces yet. I'm leery about just switching it over since I have no way of knowing if it's really the waste line(no markings anywhere), if it's plugged or where that pipe goes. Any suggestions, anyone?

 

[SebringDon]

More questions:

There's a plastic tube about 1 1/4" in dia entering the pool about 6" below the water line at the midpoint of the pool. Any idea what that may be for?

I have two jets by the steps that don't appear to be working. It looks like they have knurled edges, so perhaps they're just closed at the moment?

Finally, can anybody tell me what this metal box is? It's just outside the patio perimeter, about the centerline of one end of the pool.

 

[Stuamurr]

I would only caution of the risk of larger debris reaching your pump impeller, so make sure you are only drawing water into the pump where it has a straining source before it hits the pump, if you have a strainer basket infront of the pump then no problem.

The metal box looks awfully like an electrical box, best guess from the picture as it looks like an electrical box for a pool light in the bottom left of the picture

The 1 1/4" tube at the midpoint, does it have an access lid on the poolside, may it be an auto leveler reservoir? thats the usual locale for one of those.

The two jets at the steps sound like returns, but you state they arent working, is there any force at them when the pump is running?

To Waste setting sounds like it is plumbed to the sewerage line of your house, you can check this by lifting a sewer access point and running the waste line without any other waste water running and seeing if you get a flow of pool water down the drain.

Regards
Stuart

 

[SebringDon]

First water test results. Sorry, these are from a Wal-Mart two-way and some Aqua-chem 6-way test strips; I'll be ordering a real test kit late this week (budget).

FC & TC currently 0; I've been scooping trash (about 10 gal by vol so far) out of the bottom and will throw in 200 oz of bleach this evening (per pool calculator)to bring it back up where I can start tracking it. No CYA and lots of trash in the pool has made keeping chlorine at any level at all very expensive, although I've been shocking when I see any green. Now that I know about regular bleach and most of the trash is out I can improve on that.
PH 7.2; according to the pool calculator I need 24 oz of borax to bring it up to 7.5
TA 40; pool calculator (PC) says add 211 oz (!) to bring it up to 100
CH; no way to test
CYA; 0; PC says add 61 oz of stabilizer.

My questions:

1) If I add both the borax and the baking soda, won't I run my PH up too high? Should I start with the baking soda and hold off on the borax for now?
2) If I dissolve the stabilizer in warm water, it's supposed to work better than the sock method. Any comments? I haven't seen that mentioned on this forum yet.

My plan: After one more scooping session tonight, I'll add chlorine, baking soda, borax (if needed) and 12 oz of suncoast drop-down flocculant, run the pump for a couple of hours (with or without the filter cartridge? pressure goes up quick because of all the particulates floating) and then see how it looks in the morning.

Separate topic: If I haven't replaced and lubed the o-rings on the filter and the pump strainer, that's probably why I lose suction after I shut off the pump? I have to reprime each time I start it. New o-rings are on the list for the next trip in town.

Am I on track or off base?

Stuamurr: I have strainers at both the skimmer and the pump, so large stuff will get caught. Thanks for the guess on the metal box; I think you're right, since there is a light in the pool across from the box. There's no access lid to the 1 1/4" tube. The jets by the seat do nothing currently but when I start up the pump I'll try the knurled knobs around them and see if they open up and start showing flow. Since I'm on a septic system I doubt the To Waste setting goes to the septic tank. I'm guessing it goes out in the yard somewhere, but I have no way to guess. I suppose at some point I'll swap over and try the pump, watch for a pressure backup and if there's not one see if I can spot where the water's coming out.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

First water test results. Sorry, these are from a Wal-Mart two-way and some Aqua-chem 6-way test strips; I'll be ordering a real test kit late this week (budget).

Based on this - which came from the strips? If pH and TC came from the 2 way kit (that's what I expect) that's all I would trust right now without knowing otherwise.

FC & TC currently 0; I've been scooping trash (about 10 gal by vol so far) out of the bottom and will throw in 200 oz of bleach this evening (per pool calculator)to bring it back up where I can start tracking it.

What is your target FC level? How will you be testing for it?

No CYA and lots of trash in the pool has made keeping chlorine at any level at all very expensive, although I've been shocking when I see any green. Now that I know about regular bleach and most of the trash is out I can improve on that.

Did you measure the CYA or are you assuming? If you want to get some in there (not too much) you could use a couple of dichlor based products to bring FC up and add CYA at the same time since you have so much trash in there - I wouldn't raise it more than 20ppm not knowing exactly what the CYA is now. Given the fact that the CYA tests are generally not able to detect below 20-30...

PH 7.2; according to the pool calculator I need 24 oz of borax to bring it up to 7.5

Actually 7.2 is perfect for shocking. The Chlorine is a little more effective at low pH than it is higher. Also using this type of chlorine (bleach) will lead to a gradual rise in pH due to the lack of acid bound to the chlorine. Trichlor and Dichlor both have CYA (a mild acid) bound to them and tend to lower pH - this will not be likely with bleach... however your TA might change that a bit.

TA 40; pool calculator (PC) says add 211 oz (!) to bring it up to 100.

Using bleach the recommended TA is actually lower than you stated - did you setup the pool in pool calculator with type of chlorine as well as surface type? I would expect a bleach pool to have a recommended TA closer to 80 than 100. I would suggest you do NOTHING about this TA until you get a good test kit. The problem with adding to the TA is that the test can be wrong. I added about 25lbs of TA boost based on pool store tests which said I had a TA of zero - only to get my kit and find out I had boosted my TA too high!

CH; no way to test
CYA; 0; PC says add 61 oz of stabilizer.

Approach CYA with caution. You don't want much in the pool while shocking. Keep it low - 20-30ppm until you clear the pool and then bring it up if you want.

To recap - fix nothing until you have more accurate data - keep chlorine in the pool at the highest level you can measure accurately until you have a better kit. If you have the yellow chlorine OTO kit you can try 1:1 or 2:1 pool water / distilled water to get samples that you can read at 2x or 3x higher than normal but the color matching is pretty delicate and easy to make mistakes with. I prefer (BY FAR) the simplicity and accuracy of the FAS-DPD test in the TF-100/Taylor K-2006.

My questions:

1) If I add both the borax and the baking soda, won't I run my PH up too high? Should I start with the baking soda and hold off on the borax for now?

Borax boosts pH - Baking soda boosts TA. A high TA will cause pH to rise but don't sweat that for now.

2) If I dissolve the stabilizer in warm water, it's supposed to work better than the sock method. Any comments? I haven't seen that mentioned on this forum yet.

I haven't used it - I have leftover dichlor "shock" that I use when I need to raise CYA (which I haven't needed to do).

 

[krazykrames]

Any more pictures of the pool and water?

 

[SebringDon]

Based on this - which came from the strips? If pH and TC came from the 2 way kit (that's what I expect) that's all I would trust right now without knowing otherwise.

What is your target FC level? How will you be testing for it?

Did you measure the CYA or are you assuming? If you want to get some in there (not too much) you could use a couple of dichlor based products to bring FC up and add CYA at the same time since you have so much trash in there - I wouldn't raise it more than 20ppm not knowing exactly what the CYA is now. Given the fact that the CYA tests are generally not able to detect below 20-30...

Actually 7.2 is perfect for shocking. The Chlorine is a little more effective at low pH than it is higher. Also using this type of chlorine (bleach) will lead to a gradual rise in pH due to the lack of acid bound to the chlorine. Trichlor and Dichlor both have CYA (a mild acid) bound to them and tend to lower pH - this will not be likely with bleach... however your TA might change that a bit.

Using bleach the recommended TA is actually lower than you stated - did you setup the pool in pool calculator with type of chlorine as well as surface type? I would expect a bleach pool to have a recommended TA closer to 80 than 100. I would suggest you do NOTHING about this TA until you get a good test kit. The problem with adding to the TA is that the test can be wrong. I added about 25lbs of TA boost based on pool store tests which said I had a TA of zero - only to get my kit and find out I had boosted my TA too high!

Approach CYA with caution. You don't want much in the pool while shocking. Keep it low - 20-30ppm until you clear the pool and then bring it up if you want.

To recap - fix nothing until you have more accurate data - keep chlorine in the pool at the highest level you can measure accurately until you have a better kit. If you have the yellow chlorine OTO kit you can try 1:1 or 2:1 pool water / distilled water to get samples that you can read at 2x or 3x higher than normal but the color matching is pretty delicate and easy to make mistakes with. I prefer (BY FAR) the simplicity and accuracy of the FAS-DPD test in the TF-100/Taylor K-2006.

pH and TC matched on both the strips and the drop kit. I'm targeting a TC of around 3 until I get the CYA settled at a reasonable level, but I'm going to shock it up to 10 tonight, then level out around 3. I'm aiming for 30 CYA when everything is settled down. I'll test for FC and pH with both the drop kit and strips until I get the good test kit delivered.

The CYA is zero according to both test strips and a drop test by the local Pinch-a-Penny (before I discovered TFP.com). The pool's been sitting unattended for months at the very least, perhaps over a year, so I'm not too surprised. I'll reset my CYA target to 20 until I get the more accurate test kit. I see from the test strips that telling the difference between 0 and 50 is tricky, so that strip test is pretty much worthless. I'm definitely closer to 0 than 50, though. I know I want to keep it from getting too high because I don't want to replace water.

I'm changing my TA target to 80 based on what you had to say. PC says I should target 70 to 90+, so 80's right in the middle. I'll also leave target pH at 7.2 until I get TA tuned a bit closer. I did set up the pool calculator for bleach, plaster, an TFP.com goals.

PC now calls for 301 oz of bleach to shock to 10, 136 oz of baking soda to raise TA from 40 to 80, and 39 oz of CYA to raise from 0 to 20.

I'll probably start with half the baking soda and CYA and wait until I get the better test kit. I'm guessing that with most of the trash out of the pool my chlorine should stick around better than it has. We also get a maximum of sun everyday here in south-central Florida.

Thanks again for the assistance.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

pH and TC matched on both the strips and the drop kit.

That's good.

I'm targeting a TC of around 3 until I get the CYA settled at a reasonable level, but I'm going to shock it up to 10 tonight, then level out around 3.

Around here shocking is a process not a one time event. Your pool - if not crystal clear - needs to be shocked for an extended period of time until the overnight losses are <= 1ppm, the Combined Chlorines are <= 0.5ppm, and the water is crystal clear. See details here: pool-school/shocking_your_pool

The CYA is zero according to both test strips and a drop test by the local Pinch-a-Penny (before I discovered TFP.com). The pool's been sitting unattended for months at the very least, perhaps over a year, so I'm not too surprised. I'll reset my CYA target to 20 until I get the more accurate test kit. I see from the test strips that telling the difference between 0 and 50 is tricky, so that strip test is pretty much worthless. I'm definitely closer to 0 than 50, though. I know I want to keep it from getting too high because I don't want to replace water.

Good plan.

I'm changing my TA target to 80 based on what you had to say. PC says I should target 70 to 90+, so 80's right in the middle. I'll also leave target pH at 7.2 until I get TA tuned a bit closer. I did set up the pool calculator for bleach, plaster, an TFP.com goals.

Reasonable.

PC now calls for 301 oz of bleach to shock to 10, 136 oz of baking soda to raise TA from 40 to 80, and 39 oz of CYA to raise from 0 to 20.

I'll probably start with half the baking soda and CYA and wait until I get the better test kit. I'm guessing that with most of the trash out of the pool my chlorine should stick around better than it has. We also get a maximum of sun everyday here in south-central Florida.

Sounds like a plan. How do you determine TC from FC with your kit? Is that from the strips?

When shocking - rememeber that you need a little extra to ensure you stay close to shock value between tests. You need to test as frequently as is rational - several times a day if you can. The idea is to keep the pressure on the algae until it gives up entirely!

 

[SebringDon]

Any more pictures of the pool and water?

Nothing current at the moment, maybe tomorrow. Here's what it looked like when we made an offer back in May. It's been unattended far longer than that. It's now at the proper level, and I've removed 10-15 gallons or so of muck and leaves from the bottom so far. That's what algae water looks like over a bottom that's caked in trash.

Here's a shot of the pump-filter area, before I did any cleanup. Three inlets come in from the left, two open, one closed. I have no idea where the closed inlet will pull water from. Two outflows on the pressure side, with the left one currently selected for sending water back to the pool. I have no idea where the other one will dump the water. There's no pre-filter outlet on the pressure side. Obviously I'm going to have to take a sawzall to it one of these days.

And finally, a night shot from a few nights ago that gives a glimmer of why we bought a house with the pool in such lousy shape. Still a long way to go, but there's an oasis in our future.

 

[SebringDon]

Around here shocking is a process not a one time event. Your pool - if not crystal clear - needs to be shocked for an extended period of time until the overnight losses are <= 1ppm, the Combined Chlorines are <= 0.5ppm, and the water is crystal clear. See details here: pool-school/shocking_your_pool

How do you determine TC from FC with your kit? Is that from the strips?

When shocking - rememeber that you need a little extra to ensure you stay close to shock value between tests. You need to test as frequently as is rational - several times a day if you can. The idea is to keep the pressure on the algae until it gives up entirely!

Yes, the strips report TC and FC.

I'll take your comments and the lessons from the link to heart. So far I've just been trying to keep enough chlorine in often enough to avoid a repeat of what I started with. Now that most of the trash is dealt with, it's time to get serious about water quality.

I'm sure glad I found TFP.com, but I bet the local Pinch-A-Penny owner isn't nearly as happy. :-D

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

What do you need the "prefilter outlet" for?

How many skimmers? Does the pool have a dedicated suction line or main drain?

You are doing great.


- Sent using Tapatalk

 

[SebringDon]

What do you need the "prefilter outlet" for?

How many skimmers? Does the pool have a dedicated suction line or main drain?

You are doing great.


- Sent using Tapatalk

It would be nice to be able to vacumn to waste. To do that the way I'm set up now, I need to take the filter cartridge out, then figure out where that second pipe on the pressure side dumps its water. Then I'd have to clean the filter canister out before I put the cartridge back in. An outlet to waste between the pump and the filter would solve those problems.

There's only one skimmer, off-center on one end of the pool, the opposite end of the pool from the steps. There's a main drain that's also on the suction side, in the center of the pool. I think those are the two valves that are open now from how it's working. There's a third valve on the suction side that has the knob broken off, so I haven't opened it yet. I have no idea where it draws from.

It appears (I haven't been in yet, needless to say) that the ends are shallow, 4 feet or less, and the bottom middle is the deepest, around 5 feet. At 12 x 32, I think it was built as a lap pool, definitely not a diving pool.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. They're important.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

It would be nice to be able to vacumn to waste. To do that the way I'm set up now, I need to take the filter cartridge out, then figure out where that second pipe on the pressure side dumps its water. Then I'd have to clean the filter canister out before I put the cartridge back in. An outlet to waste between the pump and the filter would solve those problems.

Makes perfect sense now. Got it!

There's only one skimmer, off-center on one end of the pool, the opposite end of the pool from the steps. There's a main drain that's also on the suction side, in the center of the pool. I think those are the two valves that are open now from how it's working. There's a third valve on the suction side that has the knob broken off, so I haven't opened it yet. I have no idea where it draws from.

Look for what looks like a return with a cover on it below the surface on the walls of the pool. If you find one it may be for a dedicated suction line for a vac or cleaner. If you use it - add a leaf cannister - otherwise you could clog it.

It appears (I haven't been in yet, needless to say) that the ends are shallow, 4 feet or less, and the bottom middle is the deepest, around 5 feet. At 12 x 32, I think it was built as a lap pool, definitely not a diving pool.

If it's 5-5.5' if you wanted you might be able to add a slide at some point. Sounds like a rational depth for water polo and just lazy drifting.

Thanks for the words of encouragement. They're important.

Have some more!
You're getting the hang of things, you have a plan, you're on track!

 

[SebringDon]

There's only one skimmer, off-center on one end of the pool, the opposite end of the pool from the steps. There's a main drain that's also on the suction side, in the center of the pool. I think those are the two valves that are open now from how it's working. There's a third valve on the suction side that has the knob broken off, so I haven't opened it yet. I have no idea where it draws from.

Look for what looks like a return with a cover on it below the surface on the walls of the pool. If you find one it may be for a dedicated suction line for a vac or cleaner. If you use it - add a leaf cannister - otherwise you could clog it.

The only thing I've found so far that might fit that description is a plastic pipe that looks to be about 1 1/4" or 1 1/2", about 6" below water level about center of one long side of the pool. I'll see if a hose fits in or over it before making any assumptions.

Test kits: Amazon has the Taylor K-2006 for $49, or the Taylor K-2006C for $89. I'm not sure what the difference is, although one source says more reagent. If that's the primary difference I'll probably go for the C version to avoid early reorder of reagent. Does anyone know the difference between the two kits?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

There's only one skimmer, off-center on one end of the pool, the opposite end of the pool from the steps. There's a main drain that's also on the suction side, in the center of the pool. I think those are the two valves that are open now from how it's working. There's a third valve on the suction side that has the knob broken off, so I haven't opened it yet. I have no idea where it draws from.

Look for what looks like a return with a cover on it below the surface on the walls of the pool. If you find one it may be for a dedicated suction line for a vac or cleaner. If you use it - add a leaf cannister - otherwise you could clog it.

The only thing I've found so far that might fit that description is a plastic pipe that looks to be about 1 1/4" or 1 1/2", about 6" below water level about center of one long side of the pool. I'll see if a hose fits in or over it before making any assumptions.

Could be - could also be the 2nd return you haven't identified. Typically there is a cover on the suction ports to avoid sucking someone's arm/hair etc.

Test kits: Amazon has the Taylor K-2006 for $49, or the Taylor K-2006C for $89. I'm not sure what the difference is, although one source says more reagent. If that's the primary difference I'll probably go for the C version to avoid early reorder of reagent. Does anyone know the difference between the two kits?

I'm not sure I haven't looked in a while - check the taylor website. The TF100 is still a better deal unless you have a gift card lying around setup for use with Amazon. (Unless you really love the acid/base demand test...)

 

[SebringDon]

Thanks, Vanya, I'll take a look at the Taylor site. Just added enough chlorine to start a shock and flocculant. Running the pump for an hour without the cartridge to mix it all up. We got hit by a major rainstorm, so I'm as wet as if I went swimming. Hopefully tomorrow morning will see better looking water. I've got most the junk off the bottom now, and tomorrow I should be able to see well enough to get rid of the rest. Then I can put the cart back in and get serious.

 

[Stuamurr]

Get the TF100 from this website http://tftestkits.net/splash-page.html

The above also stocks the Taylor kits.

Regards
Stuart