Sebring FL pool recovery - cleaning a total mess

[UnderWaterVanya]

If it is black algae it covers itself with a protective coating which your brushing disturbs. Keep on it.


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[SebringDon]

If it is black algae it covers itself with a protective coating which your brushing disturbs. Keep on it.


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So the combination of scrubbing with the wire brush and the shock-level chlorine should show results over time, but neither action will make immediate changes that are readily apparent. Gee, it sounds like I'm going to be having a good time for a while.

OTOH, it sounds like it's fruitless to stand there and scrub and scrub, and the best approach is to hit it frequently with a wire brush, rather than try to scrub it away.

If the water's basically clear, there's no chlorine odor, and the pool's around 10ppm chlorine, is it safe to let the dog and the wife in for a while? They both want to try it out. Or should I wait until I've seen the magic 20 on the CYA actually on the gauge? The step end of the pool is free of all but a little brown staining on the top step that nothing I've tried yet has cleared up.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

CC is at or below 0.5 and water is not cloudy right? Sounds fine to me.


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[SebringDon]

I'm now shocking the pool, trying to maintain 10 or better even though I'm not sure of my CYA yet. I did test overnight last night, and I used about two points of chlorine (36 oz, 10% concentration) between 9PM and 7:30 AM, all sun-free time. During the day, in bright sunlight, I'm dropping the same two points in about an hour, so that makes me think the CYA is still pretty low.

A couple of (almost) clear shots of the algae/stains remaining in the pool:

First, the southwest corner of the pool, which gets the least direct sunlight. The whole south wall has a little of this near the floor-wall junction, but it's the worst where this picture was taken. Trichlor doesn't seem to have much impact. I'll be trying vitamin C today.

The floor on the west end. This looks like brown dirt stains, but trichlor cuts it, and vitamin C does basically nothing. The east end gets more sun and except for the southeast corner is almost completely clean. Is this the dreaded yellow algae? The stuff on the west wall (on the right) is mostly black, the stuff on the floor (left side of picture) is shades of brown.

I'm brushing a couple times a day and just vacuumed this morning for the first time, since all the leaves are gone. There was surprisingly little loose dirt on the bottom, I guess because I used a fine-mesh net bag to get most of the garbage out and brought a lot of dirt up that way.

I'm going to take another CYA reading this evening and see where I stand.

Oh, and here's a picture that shows the overall water quality. Compared to where I started (see page 1) the difference is amazing, but I've still got a long way to go.

Oh, and a general question I might be better asking elsewhere in the forum: Where's the "sweet spot" for a chlorine pool as far as CYA? Has anybody done a curve that says at X level of CYA, your chlorine consumption will be at its lowest? All I know is that's somewhere between 30 and 100. :?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I'm now shocking the pool, trying to maintain 10 or better even though I'm not sure of my CYA yet. I did test overnight last night, and I used about two points of chlorine (36 oz, 10% concentration) between 9PM and 7:30 AM, all sun-free time. During the day, in bright sunlight, I'm dropping the same two points in about an hour, so that makes me think the CYA is still pretty low.

Losing 2 points overnight is indicative of growing things like that algae you see. Don't bother testing overnight again until you don't see any. While you have growing algae the sunlight losses can be pretty high - the algae needs light (even if shade preferring variety) and the chlorine hates it.

The floor on the west end. This looks like brown dirt stains, but trichlor cuts it, and vitamin C does basically nothing. The east end gets more sun and except for the southeast corner is almost completely clean. Is this the dreaded yellow algae? The stuff on the west wall (on the right) is mostly black, the stuff on the floor (left side of picture) is shades of brown.

It could be mustard algae - does it fluff apart when brushed - if it does then probably if not then maybe not. Black algae is even more dreaded than Mustard Algae by the way...

Oh, and here's a picture that shows the overall water quality. Compared to where I started (see page 1) the difference is amazing, but I've still got a long way to go.

Looking much better than your first picture you showed us.

Oh, and a general question I might be better asking elsewhere in the forum: Where's the "sweet spot" for a chlorine pool as far as CYA? Has anybody done a curve that says at X level of CYA, your chlorine consumption will be at its lowest? All I know is that's somewhere between 30 and 100. :?

Keep the questions here for now. The recommended CYA is 30-50 for a non SWG pool. There are charts that show that the curve flattens out quickly as you approach 70, the benefits are far outweighed by the negative impact. CYA might reduce your losses at higher levels - but it's a percentage based loss - so at the higher free chlorine you would be required to maintain you'd likely use more anyway. In my opinion 30-35 is fine. This leaves you a bit of wiggle room for CYA to grow if you need to go out of town and leave some trichlor in a floater. Anything 30-50 is fine. I'm running about 55 now and not having too many problems.

 

[SebringDon]

Losing 2 points overnight is indicative of growing things like that algae you see. Don't bother testing overnight again until you don't see any. While you have growing algae the sunlight losses can be pretty high - the algae needs light (even if shade preferring variety) and the chlorine hates it.

The floor on the west end. This looks like brown dirt stains, but trichlor cuts it, and vitamin C does basically nothing. The east end gets more sun and except for the southeast corner is almost completely clean. Is this the dreaded yellow algae? The stuff on the west wall (on the right) is mostly black, the stuff on the floor (left side of picture) is shades of brown.

It could be mustard algae - does it fluff apart when brushed - if it does then probably if not then maybe not. Black algae is even more dreaded than Mustard Algae by the way...

Oh, and a general question I might be better asking elsewhere in the forum: Where's the "sweet spot" for a chlorine pool as far as CYA? Has anybody done a curve that says at X level of CYA, your chlorine consumption will be at its lowest? All I know is that's somewhere between 30 and 100. :?

Keep the questions here for now. The recommended CYA is 30-50 for a non SWG pool. There are charts that show that the curve flattens out quickly as you approach 70, the benefits are far outweighed by the negative impact. CYA might reduce your losses at higher levels - but it's a percentage based loss - so at the higher free chlorine you would be required to maintain you'd likely use more anyway. In my opinion 30-35 is fine. This leaves you a bit of wiggle room for CYA to grow if you need to go out of town and leave some trichlor in a floater. Anything 30-50 is fine. I'm running about 55 now and not having too many problems.

The overnight test was just out of curiosity, and so that I could bring my level back up above 10 if I needed to. I figured the pool would be eating chlorine overnight for a while.

Very little happens when I brush either the black stuff on the walls or the brown stuff on the bottom, although I do see a little lightening of the brown, the black remains pretty stubborn. I'll just keep brushing. Trichlor works on the brown stuff, but doesn't seem to do anything to the black. Vitamin C does nothing to the brown, but I haven't tested it on the black yet. That makes me think the brown stuff on the bottom is organic, and the black stuff isn't, but perhaps the black is just very, very stubborn?

I haven't tested for CYA since Tuesday; I'm thinking a test this evening might be called for since I added some CYA in various formats several days ago. I'm aiming for low to mid 20s until I get the shocking process completed.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

One way to test for Black Algae is to take it and try to get some of it off and rub on a white business card - if it's green it's likely black algae. Also I read it's supposed to form in circles - but I'm not sure about that. Lastly if it doesn't come off and isn't green - that vitamin c test is your friend - could be metals...

Keep working on the brown stuff as well. If that disappears you may want to follow the mustard algae steps listed in pool school and run it up to MA shock for 24 hours after passing the OCLT - but we'll pass that bridge when you get to it. If it's MA you'll need to pull lights and ladders and scrub under, in etc all nooks and crannies.

If you're dealing with metal stains - you'll need to get them off and then decide if you want to dump the water or keep it sequestered.

 

[SebringDon]

Neither trichlor or vitamin c seems to make much of a dent on the black stains, although I'm retesting the vitamin c by letting a tab rest on one of the black spots for 30 mins. The brown stains, however, are rapidly scrubbing away now that I've been in the shock process for 24 hours. They are brown, with no hint of yellow, and I'm treating at regular shock, not mustard shock levels, so who knows what it is?

The black stains feel a little slimy, but I can't get any of it to scrape off. Some of the black stains appear to be lightening a bit, but it may just be wishful thinking on my part.

I'll stay with it for another 24 hours and see what my results look like then before whining any more.

 

[SebringDon]

No whining, everything's going according to plan. I just thought a picture of the black stuff, now that the water is crystal clear, might be worthwhile.

Oh, and here's another of the wall, showing how widespread the problem is.

I think I can handle the black stuff, but can somebody please tell me how the heck I'm gonna get those big fluffy clouds out of my pool??? :-D

Thanks again for Pool School and all the assistance here. I'd still be looking at a green swamp if I was listening to the pool store!

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I have a vinyl pool, so I am unsure but seeing that pic makes me wonder if some of what you are seeing is scaling. Keep doing what you have been - when you pass the OCLT we can discuss the next phase. Mustard Algae details are in pool school - key difference from normal shocking is that you wait untill you pass the OCLT then raise FC to the Mustard Algae level while scrubbing everywhere... let it marinate for 24 hours, tossing anything that has been in the water in for an hour, and then allow it to come down.

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[SebringDon]

Okay, somebody explain this to me. The pool continues to clear with the shock process and brushing. The bottom areas that looked to be covered in brown algae were apparently a combination of dirt and regular old algae; they're almost cleared after regular brushing, and when I vacumned I had muddy sand in the filter, as well as plenty of dead algae. The black marks on the wall apparently are algae, as they are getting lighter each day. So far so good, right? Here's the latest picture. It's all good, except how did I manage to pass the OCLT last night, if that's algae and it's still being killed off? FC was 11.5 at 8PM and the same this morning at 7AM.

Another Q: I'm going to have to be gone for two days, from Thur to Sat. Do I just pump up the chlorine level, toss in a trichlor tablet, leave the pump running, and hope for the best?

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

What is your CYA?

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[SebringDon]

What is your CYA?

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My CYA still tests at less than 20. There's some murkiness, but the black dot is still plainly visible. I've added enough CYA I should be over 20, and I added the last of it 5 or 6 days ago, so I expected it to show up by now. Perhaps time for more CYA in a sock? We did have three evenings with hard rain during that period.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

My CYA still tests at less than 20. There's some murkiness, but the black dot is still plainly visible. I've added enough CYA I should be over 20, and I added the last of it 5 or 6 days ago, so I expected it to show up by now. Perhaps time for more CYA in a sock? We did have three evenings with hard rain during that period.

The reason I asked was your question about using Trichlor tabs for the pool - don't add more CYA just yet - just use the tabs for the days you are away and see where you are when you get back.

 

[SebringDon]

My CYA still tests at less than 20. There's some murkiness, but the black dot is still plainly visible. I've added enough CYA I should be over 20, and I added the last of it 5 or 6 days ago, so I expected it to show up by now. Perhaps time for more CYA in a sock? We did have three evenings with hard rain during that period.

The reason I asked was your question about using Trichlor tabs for the pool - don't add more CYA just yet - just use the tabs for the days you are away and see where you are when you get back.

Oh, I understand. I thought perhaps it had something to do with how I passed the OCLT with visible signs of black algae still in the pool. Tonight I'll do a vigorous brushing after the sun has set and see if I show CL loss overnight. Maybe there was nothing exposed for the CL to eat overnight.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

I thought perhaps it had something to do with how I passed the OCLT with visible signs of black algae still in the pool. Tonight I'll do a vigorous brushing after the sun has set and see if I show CL loss overnight. Maybe there was nothing exposed for the CL to eat overnight.

That's where there are 3 separate criteria for stopping shock:

CC <= 0.5
OCLT <= 1.0
NO VISIBLE SIGNS of ALGAE

But if the CC and OCLT continued to be OK and no changes were noticed on the algae and you were brushing etc there might be room to consider other causes. At this point it appears you are still making progress and I agree that black algae with it's nasty habit of covering itself in protective coating could just go into hiding overnight and not be eaten by the chlorine which would give you a good OCLT but not indicate that you were algae free.

 

[CUTiger78]

Don, that "black algae" looks suspiciously like mildew. Do you know if your pool was ever drained and left that way for some time? Mildew is really mold, a fungus, and can grow on damp, inorganic surfaces. Never heard of it growing underwater, though.

My experiences are that it can permanently discolor some materials. If you're having success with brushing and Cl lightening the black stain, maybe you're on the road to victory over it.

Just a thought. Fingers crossed for you!

 

[SebringDon]

Don, that "black algae" looks suspiciously like mildew. Do you know if your pool was ever drained and left that way for some time? Mildew is really mold, a fungus, and can grow on damp, inorganic surfaces. Never heard of it growing underwater, though.

My experiences are that it can permanently discolor some materials. If you're having success with brushing and Cl lightening the black stain, maybe you're on the road to victory over it.

Just a thought. Fingers crossed for you!

Thanks, Tiger. I know the water was down at least a foot or so for a while, because when we looked at the place back in April it was like that (see the photos on page 1 or 2 of this thread). Other than that, all I know is that it wasn't touched for many, many months; it was in pre-foreclosure when we managed to push through a short-sale.

It may well be mildew of some sort, since it's mostly on the sides of the pool that don't get direct sunlight. It does seem that vigorous brushing and maintaining a chlorine level above 10 (with the occasional spike to 14) seems to be making a serious dent in whatever it is. Since we're in the process of moving in, there are lots of things demanding my attention, but I think I'm making real progress. I was in last night to do some scrubbing, and we're going to just enjoy it a bit tonight. I've got chlorine under control, and CCs have been .5 or less since I started the shock process on Thursday. The dog had to get in with me while I was cleaning, and since neither of us broke out in a rash or lost our hair, I figure we'll be fine for the occasional dip until all the cleanup is done.

I'm half-planning to have it drained and resurfaced sometime over the winter, as well as tile work repaired, assuming the water table gets down low enough to allow it. ("Winter" here means highs in the 70s, lows in the 50s. )

 

[SebringDon]

The top step of the pool was exposed to the elements for some time, and it has ugly brown stains that nothing seems to cut. Does anybody have any suggestions? It looks like nothing short of resurfacing will help.

And if any of you know of unbelievers in the Trouble Free Pool concept, show them these before and after pics. The first was shot in April, the second was shot today, after dredging out the pool and applying the shocking process for five days. It was NOT a drain and refill; the water table's too high this time of year. That's resurrected water, plus some rain water. I can now tell if a dime is heads or tails while it's laying on the bottom.

(Yes, the fence is slated for replacement shortly after the first of the year. )

We've come a long way, baby!!!

 

[CUTiger78]

The top step of the pool was exposed to the elements for some time, and it has ugly brown stains that nothing seems to cut. Does anybody have any suggestions?

I just read an interesting thread on no-drain acid washes. Maybe that would work. Certainly cheaper than new plaster. Check out 2nd-times-a-charm-no-drain-acid-wash-t39173.html .

Cheers!