How to electrical rough and trim an inground pool?

[Tammylinde]

I have decided to add an approx. 8,000 gallon inground pool to a porch that we began to build (but have not finished yet). My husband did all the electrical work on the porch (which is at "rough in" state now) and he is telling me that he needs to know how to plan the rough in and finish of the pool before he closes the walls of the porch. He doesn't know anything about pools and told me to find out what he needs to do. I am confused and this is stopping my pool planning.

One pool contractor told me I should run a "60 amp sub-panel" to the location of the pool pump and that would be enough. My husband says he has already run spare 15, 20 and 30A "branches" from the main panel and can provide 110 or 220V where it is needed. He thinks a 60A subpanel must be overkill?

An electrician friend of mine told me the unique thing about pool electrical was "bonding", but then he said that was usually done by someone else? Not the electrician. A friend who does pool decks agreed that he has done the "bonding" himself before he covers it with a pool deck and that it inspected before the electrician gets there?

I want the following:

Pool filter/pump solar system
Water feature w/accent light
Bubbler w/accent light
Pool light (LED)
Therapy jets

I want to be able to control the water features and accent light with separate switches and have the switches/controls inside the porch and not outside by the filter/pump. It is OK for the filter/pump timers and controls to be at the pump.

What needs to be roughed in? What kind of wires and where? What else can I tell my husband to do? He does not have the time to learn about this but he is against the idea of letting me hire an electrician to do things he knows how to do (eg pull wires and trim out).

 

[JohnT]

Read a current NEC Section 680.26 for the rules for pool wiring. It isn't simple, and the risks of improperly wired pools aren't trivial.

 

[Bama Rambler]

A 60 amp panel isnt nearly as much overkill as you (or he) may think. And it's easier to do it that way than to run a bunch of circuits from the house panel. If he does decide to stay with the circuits from the main panle everything running to the pool has to be gfci protected.

The bonding is a completely separate animal. It needs to be done correctly and a lot of electricians don't understand it.

 

[bigdav160]

Your husband is right about if there is enough open circuits in another panel he could just wire from that panel.

However, code will require an electrical disconnect within 5 ft of the pump(s). A sub panel could be used for that.

Bodning is just a term that describes all electrical conductive surfaces near/in/attached to the pool have to be connected together via a 8 gauge wire.

 

[dmanb2b]

Bodning is just a term that describes all electrical conductive surfaces near/in/attached to the pool have to be connected together via a 8 gauge wire.

Agree and just adding that the OP really should consult their local electrical inspector for minimum bonding requirements as they can vary not only with the type of material/layout to be used but up to and including bonding the water itself.

 

[davelinde]

I see this is not the simple question I'd hoped it would be. Here's my input:

"bonding" - I get the idea, I assume the inspector knows what is OK... I would guess the majority of the cost is in all that #8 wire? I don't mind paying one of the subs to do that if needed.

GFCI - yep, I figured that... no biggie. Does that include the pump motor too? I didn't think motors and ground fault detectors made a happy pair. I did assume I'd need to run a dedicated line with a means of disconnect at the motor.

60A sub panel? There is a 20A 220V line abandon in my back yard from a previous pool - that was my first choice. I've got a whip in the attic for a 30A 220V hotwater heater that is gone now (on demand propane, quite nice) that was my second choice. Running the drop for a 60A panel to the pump location is possible but seems a LOT of extra copper (I need to look it up, but that is a number 8 or maybe even 6?) and that would be my last choice AND I'd need to open the (new) wall above my main panel to pull the 60A drop into it.

I figure the pump gets a dedicated drop and a 15 or 20a branch for lighting is OK? BTW - the pool is near the main panel and the pumps are going on the far side of the house... so two branches would be better than a subpanel with two circuits.

Anyway - here's my big unknown. Before I close up and stucco the exterior walls of my (half built) porch I want to run ALL the required switches. I want to be able to turn on/off the two water features and the 3 lights from a switch panel at the back door in the porch. I have no clue how those work? Do I switch 110v at the appliance or switch a relay or is there a low voltage switch or a low voltage control panel? I'm sure if I could just see all the stuff I'm wiring I'd figure it out - but at this point I need to rough it, close it up and finish it when the pool is finished. Just my luck if I guess wrong I'll have the wrong wires roughed to the wrong place and my switches and/or branch circuits will be useless.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Controlling the water features will require controlling the pump and switching a couple of valves. You can either install a motor rated switch or use a local motor starter and control it through a standard toggle switch. The valves will require 24 VAC and you'll likely want to use a relay for the switching. The lights will require either 12 or 120 volts. Either way you can switch the 120 volts to the light directly or the transformer, so switching 120 volts will work there.

You might want to look into a small automation system and go that route.

 

[davelinde]

The valves will require 24 VAC and you'll likely want to use a relay for the switching. The lights will require either 12 or 120 volts. Either way you can switch the 120 volts to the light directly or the transformer, so switching 120 volts will work there.

You might want to look into a small automation system and go that route.

24 AC? (or DC?) If these are like irrigation valves it would be DC.
Makes sense.

I'm guessing the low voltage lighting option is like outdoor accent lights (except obviously... using lights intended for a pool). That makes sense with what DW was telling me about ordering them with a wire of designated length. Are these transformers usually direct wired or do they go into a GFCI outlet?

An automation system makes sense - I believe we wanted something that would control the filter and solar anyway... I'm guessing we can get something that would add the water feature valves (coupled with the pump) and lights too? I'm imagining a two part system where the brains go near the valves and transformer and some kind of control panel can be remoted? Did I just imagine a lot of $$'s?

THANKS!! this is what I was wondering about. I was pretty sure there was a "way it is done".

 

[bigdav160]

Did I just imagine a lot of $$'s?

All the major brands sell automated controls. Jandy, Pentair,ect....

I bought a Pentair Easytouch. The Easytouch panel is a subpanel for breakers, relay center, low voltage transformer for the valve actuators, power source for the salt water generator and a computer.
You can control and automate your pool equipment from the panel or from a remote panel/control.

All the extra's will add up. Expect to pay $1000 or more.

 

[davelinde]

You can control and automate your pool equipment from the panel or from a remote panel/control.

I'm thinking I can fish a remote control wire if I must after the porch is closed up, so maybe this is not something I need to worry now. I guess all that is left is figuring out how I rough the supplies. I can see how a 60A panel would do it easily - but since they are there I'll see if this all works out with a 30A 220 for the motor and a 20A 110 for the automation and transformers... hopefully that's not cutting it too close. The porch already has lights and outlets from the pre-pool design.

 

[pool_snob]

The valves will require 24 VAC and you'll likely want to use a relay for the switching.

24 AC? (or DC?) If these are like irrigation valves it would be DC.
Makes sense.

24VAC = 24 Volts Alternating Current

 

[davelinde]

24VAC = 24 Volts Alternating Current

yep I read that and it seemed odd to me, as I noted irrigation valves are 24 volts DC, I think the zone valves on my boiler are 24V DC too. But I googled and found 24 volt AC pool valves so I had guessed wrong here.

For sure I'd guess I need a controller for that I've never seen anything that puts out 24 volts AC before. I suppose the valves and controllers are standard and compatible with an automatic 3-way valve for the solar?

 

[bigdav160]

You'd be surprised to know that many of those "low voltage transformers" are alternating current and not direct current.

Yes, a panel like the Easytouch can control other valves, multiple pumps, pool lights, landscape lights. ect.

 

[davelinde]

BTW - since DW posted this we finally got to sit with an equipment supplier who gave me an overview of the electric rough and finish. All wiring from the controller to the devices (LED's, valves) is low voltage run in conduit. The control for the system itself is wireless (RF). The lighting and controls need a 20A GFCI and the pump needs 30A 220V. Seems simple enough to me. At this point I'm not thinking I'll do a 60A subpanel, just drop two branch circuits at a box next to the equipment.

 

[davelinde]

An update and a question...

Since October when I thought I understood this, I've learned a bit more. The shocker for me was that the drop for the pump needed to be run from the main panel back IN CONDUIT. Who knew. So none of the spare circuits I have stubbed up in the attic were usable and I hired a guy to go ahead an run a small sub panel over to my pump and controls. I also learned that a light within 5' of the edge of the pool must be 12' above the water level... well - I am 12' from the water but only 11' above the water level. So I needed to put that existing lighting circuit on a GFCI breaker.

Here's the question. Has anyone had trouble with dimmers and GFCI? I put the new breaker in and it will not hold, trips immediately. It seems like the leaky side is the neutral. I just gave up playing with it but I am suspecting the leak are a couple of 3-way dimmers I've got. I'll know soon enough when I get time to pull them out - but I was wondering if anyone else has run into trouble with gfci lighting circuits and what it was.

 

[Bama Rambler]

I would expect an inadvertant connection between ground and neutral somewhere rather than a dimmer. Even though dimmers chop off part of the sine wave that shouldn't be a problem for the gfci.

 

[davelinde]

I would expect an inadvertant connection between ground and neutral somewhere rather than a dimmer.

The bare wire touching the white will do it? I can look around for that.

 

[Bama Rambler]

Yep that will do it. The way the gfci works is by comparing the current the on hot leg to that on the neutral leg and if they don't match, it trips. So if the neutral is touching ground, part of the returning current is routed through the ground and bypasses the neutral thereby causing an inbalance.

 

[davelinde]

Yep that will do it. The way the gfci works is by comparing the current the on hot leg to that on the neutral leg and if they don't match, it trips. So if the neutral is touching ground, part of the returning current is routed through the ground and bypasses the neutral thereby causing an inbalance.

yes... but what confounds me is how ANY current flows with everything off? I mean... I DQ'd the hot lead at the panel and it trips.

In any case - there are only 4 junction boxes involved here so I think my first step will be to open them all an inspect, then start breaking the feeds section by section. The electrician was here and said he has seen a problem lightbulb do it and... gasp - a pinched romex inside a wall. ugh.

 

[davelinde]

fyi, found it!

The lighting circuit has a couple of fan boxes on it. They are not trimmed out yet, switched off... but the white wire was touching the metal box.

Now we have to sort out the hot tub. Electrician said that having an outlet within 6' was no good but hot tub says to plug it IN to an outlet no more than 5' away. I'm thinking the inspector will be OK if I swap the duplex for a single so only the hot tub can plug in. Off to HD now.