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Thread: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

  1. Back To Top    #1

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    Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Hi Gang,

    I just got the lab report for my friend's pool. Same as my pool, it is tested to Drinking Water Standard to see all the stuff in it.
    In my report : allright-tpf-alumni-changing-pool-water-in-real-time-t51352.html

    I changed 50% of my water because it does not "taste" right.
    I try to avoid changing all 100% of the water, if I can, for fear my pool will be lifted up by hydraulic pressure from ground water. I do have ground water under my 4 meters pool. I did see the water when it was constructed.

    I am still wondering, what was it that I tasted and I find it not tasting right ?
    One thing I am certain, my friends pool, a bigger one and less bather load ( no scuba divers ) taste better than my pool.
    Forget PH, painful eyes and etc etc, I do not have such problem. What I am seeking is my pool water to be as fresh as possible like a bottled water.

    I then opened up his water system file which I have with me, because in 2011, he requested to me to choose a filter system for his city and ground water supply.......to make it soft and super clean. He does not like staining from hard water and he has 1 shower system called the RainDance :
    http://www.hansgrohe.co.uk/productdetai ... lang=en_UK

    Its a very complicated shower system to mimic rain and elevate showering experience. However, learning from previous experience, hard water will cause clogging to the fine water jets.

    So I was thinking , I could look into his files and learn where that "taste" I do not like about my water possibly comes from.
    The notable improvement when I changed 50% water in my pool was the Chloride level. 700ish down to 500ish PPM.
    So I googled about chloride and wanting to know why 250 PPM is the set limit ?

    I found this :
    http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/Wate ... formation/

    " Chloride :
    The suggested limit for chloride is 250 mg/l because some people can detect a salty taste when chloride exceeds 250 mg/l. Chloride has no physiological effect."


    I am chemistry dummy. I tot sodium is salty but it is said ( google ) that 250 ppm sodium does not taste as salty as 250 PPM chloride.

    I wouldn't say my pool water is salty in anyway, all I can say it does not taste as fresh as bottled water or as fresh as my friend's pool. I do experience better taste at 500ish PPM chloride compared to 700ish. So I can taste the difference. I mean 4 years I am into it so much everyday, I can tell if something is not perfect with my water or my expectation simply gets elevated each year I know more water 101.

    My friend has an advantage that both his city water and ground water supply run thru his filter system, where I do not have that luxury. I do have a nano membrane filter system which I can use, but it serves my ground water only and not my city water supply and it is only 5,000 liters per day capacity. He only uses filtered/treated water to fill his pool. His filter system consist of ion-exchange, UV lamp, activated carbon and 1 micron filters. He has very very good raw water to feed his pool.


    Here is his area city water suppy quality before being treated. See that it failed COLOR and Coliform. Well poor country, what da ya expect

    [attachment=2:3ikb4smr]Direct from PAM ( city water supply ) not filtered - Aug 2011.JPG[/attachment:3ikb4smr]



    Here is after passing thru the filter/treatment system.
    Excellent result.
    [attachment=1:3ikb4smr]PAM ( city water supply ) after filter system - Aug 2011.JPG[/attachment:3ikb4smr]



    Here is his pool water test. It actually passed my country's Water Drinking Standard. And would probably pass World Health Org one too, but WHO one has Antimony, Silver, Selenium & tin listed where my country standard does not. Funny enough WHO does not mention TDS, or Hardness and some others. Well me chemy dummy anyway
    http://www.lenntech.com/applications/dr ... ndards.htm
    [attachment=0:3ikb4smr]Pool water test - Aug 2012.JPG[/attachment:3ikb4smr]


    Please ignore chlorine level in the pool test. The lab seems to keep water sample so long that all 2 PPM CL water never get to be read higher than 0.5 PPM by them.

    The main differences between his pool water compared to mine are :
    - Chloride 210 vs 556 PPM
    - TDS 828 vs 1215 PPM
    - Total Hardness 93.5 vs 186 PPM
    - MBAS 0.035 vs 0.05

    QUESTIONS :
    What are the other chemicals or whatever in a typical pool water which has a taste ?

    I am tempted to buy drinking water by the trucks load if I have to, to replace my pool water. I doubt my city water if untreated can deliver good raw water. Investment in a filter system is possible but to make 135,000 liters ( will take weeks ), but where do I keep so much water ? Once in 2007 my city was flooded and my pool water was replaced because it too was flooded.
    I actually did empty the pool 100% but it was only for a few hours.

    The idea is simple. I don't mind spending US$1,500 - US$2,000 per two years to buy drinking water by the trucks to 35,000 US gallons. It is worth it. Bottle water cost so much is because of the bottling, marketing and so on, its real production cost is low because the brand I have in mind has mountain water source or artesian well.
    http://www.aqua.com

    The above company used to belong to my friend but now owned by the French Danone group. My friend may still have small share and I could possibly buy their water by the truck load.

    Any ideas Gent ?


    Many Thanks
    .
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    I'm not a chemist either, but you should not "taste" pool water, especially if you have it sanitized properly with chlorine and dosed with CYA. It' not meant for drinking and will not taste as fresh as tap water. Water is a few million years old, even bottled water...it's metals, chlorine and other impurites that give it an after taste, otherwise pure water is essentially tasteless.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Perhaps investing in a reverse osmosis filter that you could use on the pool water slowly over time would help. It would slowly lower all contaminates, you would need to watch cya levels - but other than that it should help without harm.

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Hi Dman,

    Taste is not about drinking it, once in our mouth our taste buds will react......how not to ?
    There is no person who can swim a mere 10 minutes and not allow pool water to enter his mouth, I hope u dont think I am that stupid. ....by drinking my pool water. There is 1 bat which always drink from my pool though.
    Also dive training in a pool, will make you taste pool water more often than just a swim. The process of learning to use the breathing gear is like that. Again, no one will drink from the pool.

    Do you know that we can taste air too underwater because we divers ( recreational ones ) need to breath from our mouth.
    So not only our nose can work to detect nasty gas cocktail but our tongue taste buds can sense bad air too since it is so dense at say 130 feet. Same with water, clean air is tasteless and has zero odor after all water is H20.

    Exactly as u are saying, if water can be as "tasteless" as possible it will be nice because the "freshness" will be more pronounced. For ur case you use SWG and very hard for you to detect any taste difference in your pool coming from extra burden of other TDS, the approx 4000PPM salt u are using mask everything. That taste reason is why I never wanted an SWG in my pool, I did consider that alternative once but when I tasted the water, I walked away.

    I have clear & sanitized water all year long. Its no challenge anymore. Now I seek a more difficult challenge, so to speak because the sensation of being able to achieve a very fresh water is simply too tempting to ignore. I swim often in my friend's pool and I taught his pool boy what I learnt from TPF which resulted in a water that good. He said in Japan, in an indoor pool. He has experienced the best water in his life. Japanese when it comes to cleanliness & certain perfection is among the world's best , that I am not surprised. I am so intrigued to learn how to achieve that kind of water freshness level. One must even wear head cap by regulation in that Japanese pool to reduce hair based debris and probably dandruff hahaha.

    That very reason I install ozone is to reduce CL but the bather load and ambient "devils" simply does not allow me to go lower than 1.5 PPM ( at CYA 20 ). If I were to know TPF before I made my pool, I would have designed the sanitation, filtration and plumbing differently. I am also looking at timer based CL injection also as alternative to prevent hills and valleys on the CL graph. Not daily timer but bather load timer based injection system. I know how many PPM I loose per diver in water per 4 hours. So I can inject the same amount I expect to loose within that 4 hours.


    Hi Vanya,
    I did speak to my RO supplier. I buy lots of RO for my client's project, for 100 to 1000 people needs in remote mining camps.
    One thing to remember for RO membrane or any membrane, be it Nano or UF membrane, is that they do not tolerate Chlorine, that is the downside. Within 1000 hours exposure at approx 1 PPM CL ( if I remember correctly ), the membrane will be a total loss. That means 42 days.

    RO water also so lack of minerals at 99.8% TDS removal capability, it is pretty "corrosive" and the PH aint great at output, approx PH 6.8 or so ( depending on feed water though but usually lower than feedwater ) and I want 7.2 to 7.4 to match our eyes. So lots of homework and extra work to be done where oxidizer is in the feed water for membranes.

    RO water reject or called concentrate if from a 2000 PPM membrane ( brackish water type ) can be up to 40-50%, depending on the pressure setting and other parameter. That is very high water loss. For my pool I only need brackish water membrane and not the 32,000 PPM ones and the best ones are from Toray ( Japan ) and Hydronics ( USA ) and Koch ( German ). I have used the Dow Chemical ones called Filmtec, they are so so quality.

    For my pool, I do not need RO membrane actually. Nano Membrane is enough if I started with new low TDS water, but again the problem is chlorine will kill all these membranes. Its not plug and play for membrane, a lot of monitoring and work too. I paid for my Nano membrane approx US$7000 with complete pre-filter, auto backwash system and activated carbon. All local assembled with foreign parts. As I stated in post #1, its is 5000 liters per day only to purify my filthy ground water. Here in my city one can not rely a 100% from government water supply. Their supply failure rate can be 3 weeks a year.

    It is cheaper to buy bottled water type/source per 2 years and spend US$2,000 and less mechanical headache a membrane system will bring me.

    Later Gang,
    SP
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

  5. Back To Top    #5

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    I've yet to see any scuba gear that is "clean" by any stretch of the imagination
    Wet suits generally smell funky from the ocean, peoples sweat etc
    IMO changing the pool water will work.....for maybe a few weeks, months maybe
    Then whatever is making your pool water "taste" weird will come back from the source
    30 yr old 16x32' IG pool, ~16,600g, Hayward DE 4820 filter w/1.5hp pump, Solar heat

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Hi Dman,

    Taste is not about drinking it, once in our mouth our taste buds will react......how not to ?
    There is no person who can swim a mere 10 minutes and not allow pool water to enter his mouth, I hope u dont think I am that stupid. ....by drinking my pool water. There is 1 bat which always drink from my pool though.
    Also dive training in a pool, will make you taste pool water more often than just a swim. The process of learning to use the breathing gear is like that. Again, no one will drink from the pool.

    Do you know that we can taste air too underwater because we divers ( recreational ones ) need to breath from our mouth.
    So not only our nose can work to detect nasty gas cocktail but our tongue taste buds can sense bad air too since it is so dense at say 130 feet. Same with water, clean air is tasteless and has zero odor after all water is H20.

    Exactly as u are saying, if water can be as "tasteless" as possible it will be nice because the "freshness" will be more pronounced. For ur case you use SWG and very hard for you to detect any taste difference in your pool coming from extra burden of other TDS, the approx 4000PPM salt u are using mask everything. That taste reason is why I never wanted an SWG in my pool, I did consider that alternative once but when I tasted the water, I walked away.

    I have clear & sanitized water all year long. Its no challenge anymore. Now I seek a more difficult challenge, so to speak because the sensation of being able to achieve a very fresh water is simply too tempting to ignore. I swim often in my friend's pool and I taught his pool boy what I learnt from TPF which resulted in a water that good. He said in Japan, in an indoor pool. He has experienced the best water in his life. Japanese when it comes to cleanliness & certain perfection is among the world's best , that I am not surprised. I am so intrigued to learn how to achieve that kind of water freshness level. One must even wear head cap by regulation in that Japanese pool to reduce hair based debris and probably dandruff hahaha.

    That very reason I install ozone is to reduce CL but the bather load and ambient "devils" simply does not allow me to go lower than 1.5 PPM ( at CYA 20 ). If I were to know TPF before I made my pool, I would have designed the sanitation, filtration and plumbing differently. I am also looking at timer based CL injection also as alternative to prevent hills and valleys on the CL graph. Not daily timer but bather load timer based injection system. I know how many PPM I loose per diver in water per 4 hours. So I can inject the same amount I expect to loose within that 4 hours.

    Later Gang,
    SP
    I don't think you are stupid. You are however trying to achieve something we can likely not help you with. Pool water per TFP suggested guidelines, tastes like chlorinated pool water and it will not taste like bottled water. Chlorine adds salt to the pool. A salt water pool is a chlorine pool. My pool tastes the same whether I let the SWG create chlorine or I add chlorine out of a bleach bottle. It also tastes just like my neighbors pool who is on BBB, but does not have a SWG. For the record, my salt level is between 2600-3000ppm, not 4000+. It also not unusual for a regular chlorine pool to have in excess of 2000ppm salt.

    Bottom line, a pool with the suggested amount of FC, CYA, CH, etc, will taste like chlorinated pool water. The "taste" is not bothersome nor is it "smelly" but it certainly is not like drinking water and has sort of a clean sheets smell to it. With that said, it certainly tastes better than 30,000+ppm saltwater, which to me again is not bothersome, you just expect it.

    Why don't you speak to the pool boy you taught to maintain your friends pool? He should be able to explain how he achieves such water and perhaps even compare the chemistry to your water.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Reverse Osmosis for pools is typically done by dechlorinating the water before it gets to the membrane and then adding chlorine back to the water after it leaves the system. An RO system designed for pools will do this automatically as part of the system so that the bulk pool water can keep it's chlorine level intact.

    A salty taste comes mostly from sodium though potassium also has some effect (about 60%). Calcium has a unique bitter/sour taste. Even though chloride doesn't have a direct physiological effect, one cannot have a negative ion of chloride without a positive ion to compensate (charges must balance) so while you may associate salty taste with chloride, it's really coming from the sodium that comes from sodium chloride that is added. As you add more chlorine, you essentially add more sodium chloride to the water since chlorine becomes chloride when it gets used up and you get sodium either from bleach or chlorinating liquid or from a base you add if you are using an acidic source of chlorine (e.g. Trichlor). So over time, the water becomes more salty.

    If the water is acidic, then it can taste sour.

    Bitter and sweet tastes are specific to certain molecules binding to receptors so are probably not common in pool water except possibly for urea which may taste bitter.

    A few people at TFP have noted that borates in the pool have a bitter taste but not everyone notices it. You don't have any borates in your pool.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek

    A salty taste comes mostly from sodium though potassium also has some effect (about 60%). Calcium has a unique bitter/sour taste. Even though chloride doesn't have a direct physiological effect, one cannot have a negative ion of chloride without a positive ion to compensate (charges must balance) so while you may associate salty taste with chloride, it's really coming from the sodium that comes from sodium chloride that is added. As you add more chlorine, you essentially add more sodium chloride to the water since chlorine becomes chloride when it gets used up and you get sodium either from bleach or chlorinating liquid or from a base you add if you are using an acidic source of chlorine (e.g. Trichlor). So over time, the water becomes more salty.

    If the water is acidic, then it can taste sour.

    Bitter and sweet tastes are specific to certain molecules binding to receptors so are probably not common in pool water except possibly for urea which may taste bitter.

    A few people at TFP have noted that borates in the pool have a bitter taste but not everyone notices it. You don't have any borates in your pool.
    YES, THANK YOU CHEM.
    This is the kind of answer I am looking for, the one that explain why and how is the why happening.
    Thank you a 1000 thanks. Me can not Google this kind of answer, have tried but failed.

    I checked my log book, 6th May 2007 I have 396 PPM TDS. No chloride data for sure
    I been on BBB since I joined this forum April 2008 and the Chlor only for CYA purpose which I kept between 20-25 most of the time but do disappear sometime from the 100 gallon leak I have a day.

    Again most grateful your explanation have given me the pointers on how to reduce the "taste".


    On the subject or RO and the chlorine removal. I have done homework on that.
    I was involved many years ago in an RO project for a RORO ferry which can do 20K liters per day.
    The feed water was not so good, the vessel moor often in algae infested water and not open ocean.
    Chlorine was needed to sanitize but removal of the chlorine is another issue. Too much chemicals is also a problem for re-supply as they do remote area. I have seen RO membranes busted from failure of the injection system for the chlorine removal chemicals, many are from oil rigs. If I choose the activated carbon route, not only it is expensive there is no way to measure AC bed saturation. Calculation based on prediction is the only way we can do for AC.

    The most painful problem in the project was the RO system did not use mineral re-injection system and the water tanks are steel. The water so depleted of TDS, it started corroding the pipes way faster than city water would and water being kept in the tank all turn to "gold" hahaha. Good pre-treatment is a must for RO membrane, its is so dam-n sensitive. The last design I saw, was sent out to my client's remote mobile surveyor camp. They move to different places every week, so RO on special trailer. It was a UF membrane feeding RO membrane, that made the RO membrane last much longer and UF as 2nd stage pre-treatment after cartridge filters. The feed water was crazy dirty soiled with rain run off from the creek. Cartridge filters last only 12 hours......insane !!! The UF has split output for bathing/laundry water and the RO was for drinking. I don't know the English word for the nature of the area, but the plants there are yellowing the water in the creek . Lousy area.


    Dman,
    When I asked question of this nature, I know it is a tough question and thank you for trying but I wasn't expecting any real reply unless someone knows chemistry like CHEM does. The reason my pool can not "taste" as good as my friend's is the water capacity of his pool of 60K gallons compared to my 35K gallons.
    My water is from March 2007 approx, my friend's water is from 2009 approx.

    His bather load is less than half of mine. So I am accumulating more of the unwanted-s compared to his pool, you should know by now this simple water fact............more water means more buffer. With less bather load, for him to maintain 1.5PPM, he uses less liquid chlorine than me. With his water almost 2 years "younger" than mine, so he has less accumulation of the unwanted-s.

    The whole idea of this post is to identify what I been tasting and thanks to CHEM, I got my answer.
    If you said that your SWG pool "taste" the same as your friend's BBB pool, well that's too bad, the BBB one must be not so comfy to have a "taste" like an SWG pool.

    You may be pleased with what you have for your pool water, I don't. I enjoy seeking higher learning for better result.

    Chemistry 201
    Moving beyond the basics - stains, scaling, borates, indoor pools, CSI, and more

    Is the title of this section, this is why tough question is asked in this section and not at beginners section.

    I am not afraid of learning and experimenting and I am glad there is TPF and CHEM , Jason Lion, Sean B , Duraleigh , Mas985 and other respectable helpful seniors I have not mentioned, who have assisted me since 2008.

    I have a forum friend, a Canadian doctor by profession who is comparable to CHEM , but for diving air purification, another one of my beloved hobby. What I have done to my pool, is nothing compared to what I have done for my air purification system in terms of time and hardware dollars invested to seek production perfection. Since I am already nearly peaked ( so to speak ) at air purification, I am hunting for some water fun now.

    The TPF BBB training I had in 2007 ( silent reader ) to 2008 ( member ) have allowed me to understand what I can do and what I should do. Only in 2009 ending I actually mastered the predictive water sanitation after countless log books data been analyzed to profile my water to the point I can tell what type of swimmer load will take 0.1 , 0.2 and 0.3 PPM FC for certain duration of their presence in my water. Rain and sunlight profile too. That database is what I taught my friend's pool boy and he text/SMS everyday me the water test parameter twice a day ( until today ) to get my instruction on how much CL to put and etc etc. His pool daily log book is sent to me every month for my database. I am the one who modified and add filters and pumps for his pool and all pool related requirements. I get to taste his pool water when we all friends gather for wine & dine at his place with our kids nearly every two weeks. So please, if you do not know the history of these two pools and who is actually doing the work, don't assume.

    I started in 2007 with 4 PPM ( CYA +-20 PPM ) to get decently stable water, stable as in clarity stable with the bather load I have. Only when I added the ozone generator late 2008 and starts to profile ozone + chlorine characteristic by end of 2009 to early 2010, I can REALLY get away with 1.5 PPM FC and until today. No shocking ever required from 2010, no matter how heavy the bather load is and I have the best water stability ever. The only minor shocking I did was when I replaced my sunshade sometime ago due to rust hitting my water from the steel frames and and all out shock when I replaced 50% of my water last August.

    The 2012 August water change was good because I can immediately feel what lower TDS and chloride actually "taste" like. CHEM did tell me there is probably a missing perimeter ( he call it charge balance ) of my TDS when he looked at my final water lab test. He suggested there could be missing potassium ( K) or Lithium parameter, which is not part of the test parameter. As he explained above that I am "tasting" more of sodium. I failed to see that Sodium (Na) is what the Lab test called it as Natrium in my language..... So Natrium=Sodium.

    See, complex question of mine being replied in simple English and precise too by CHEM.
    Now I know what further Lab test to do.
    My task now is to reduce those things CHEM mentioned, and my tongue shall lead the way....

    What I seek is not impossible. I can probably lower my CL to 0.5 FC with the help of more ozone generators and timed chlorine injection system, but at this time and with the poor design of my pool plumbing, I can not yet do it without doing some major re-works. Hence the idea of buying bottled water by the trucks for now to seek the improvement I want where I can start all over with virgin water.

    Later,
    SP
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

  9. Back To Top    #9

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    If you require everyone who uses the pool to rinse off before they enter the pool, you may cut your chlorine demand (and hence, salt buildup) in half. When people sweat during the day the water evaporates leaving behind the urea, ammonia (to some degree), creatinine and amino acids near the surface of the skin. In addition, anyone using lotions or other "products" on their skin will have such chemicals there as well. When one goes into the pool, many of these dissolve into the water creating an incremental chlorine demand that can largely be eliminated by rinsing off first.

    One can't eliminate the chlorine demand since simply being in the pool has chlorine oxidize swimsuits, skin and hair (and scuba wet suits) and one continues to sweat when in the pool. At least by your using CYA in the water, the active chlorine level is much lower than with no CYA so that is helping to reduce the chlorine demand for such oxidation.

    By adding more supplemental oxidation such as ozone, you do NOT lower your Free Chlorine (FC) level, but rather lower your chlorine demand (daily FC usage/consumption), assuming the bather load is high enough. If the bather load is not high enough, then adding more ozone will INCREASE your chlorine demand because ozone oxidizes chlorine to chloride and chlorate. If you want the active chlorine level (proportional to the FC/CYA ratio) to be lower, then you would need to supplement with something to prevent algae growth, such as an algaecide or use phosphate removers at extra cost. Also, your disinfection rate will be lower in this situation which given a high bather load doesn't sound like a good idea. For a commercial/public pool with strangers who can transmit disease from person-to-person, having the FC at least at 10% if not 20% of the CYA level seems appropriate (the minimum for algae prevention is 7.5% of the CYA level unless using a saltwater chlorine generator in which case it's 5% of the CYA level).
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    [If you said that your SWG pool "taste" the same as your friend's BBB pool, well that's too bad, the BBB one must be not so comfy to have a "taste" like an SWG pool.
    Fair enough and you are very welcome. I tried to offer my opinion and it's just that, an opinion. With 3000+ posts on this forum I would hope you understand I try to help others to the best of my knowledge. I may not be an expert and I do truly hope your solution works.

    I am however like you interested in pools and not afraid to learn. Could you clarify your statement above for myself and others reading this post to understand? Why would the BBB pool not be so comfy. Again, I may not be as senior or respectable as the names you mentioned or omitted, but other than the slightly higher salt content of a SWG pool, is there really a difference? If salinity is what's causing bad taste, then how do you bear scuba diving, or do you do so only in fresh water?

    Thank you.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Usually you can taste the 3000 ppm salt level in an SWG pool so if a non-SWG pool tastes similar then that's pretty salty. I can say that for my pool, which currently has around 1700 ppm salt, it doesn't taste particularly salty to me while SWG pools I've been in are noticeably saltier tasting. Now, that said, I don't think my pool water tastes good, but then again I don't like tap water, filtered water or even distilled water which has no taste so I'm not a good judge -- I tend to only like to drink something that has at least some likeable flavor to it.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    Usually you can taste the 3000 ppm salt level in an SWG pool so if a non-SWG pool tastes similar then that's pretty salty. I can say that for my pool, which currently has around 1700 ppm salt, it doesn't taste particularly salty to me while SWG pools I've been in are noticeably saltier tasting. Now, that said, I don't think my pool water tastes good, but then again I don't like tap water, filtered water or even distilled water which has no taste so I'm not a good judge -- I tend to only like to drink something that has at least some likeable flavor to it.
    I agree with you 100% Richard. That's what I was trying to point out and I am not clear on what the OP's true question is here. The comment was they did not like the taste, not that it tasted too salty. Other than the differnce in taste due to salinity levels, I also share the thought that pool water in general does not taste good. Yes we all get some water in our mouths from swimming, etc but the levels and methods we recommend aren't aimed at making the water taste great, rather ensure it is properly sanitized and has minimal effects on our skin, eyes and lungs.

    At the end of the day it's pool (bathing) water and I fear that in the quest to have it's taste mimic drinking water, the OP risks their pool not being "Trouble Free".

    That said, I always appreciate your input and I will bow out of this topic as it is beyond my level of understanding
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Hi Guys,

    Once I decided to use SWG or ozone and due to my 28 - 30C water temperature, I was looking at approx 4000 PPM salt to be effective if SGW is the choice.

    So what I did was made water sample of 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500 and 4000 PPM salt.

    I assemble my family members and friends during a pool session.
    I told them, does this water "taste" OK for your guys compared to what you are experiencing in the pool now ?
    "Just open your mouth as you would when installing/wearing a snorkle and let me know"

    At 2,500 PPM everyone dislike it already.
    So that is it, SWG plan cancelled. I can not force my kids to like what I choose just because maintenance is lower. The pool was built for my kids and myself but I allow use for my wive's business , which is diving.
    I handed her the dive business and I do other things, I only assist when the going gets tough.

    I dive in sea all the time, so when I hit a fresh water pool I do not want anymore salt please.
    There are many beach resorts using SWG where they are in remote areas, less problem for the chemical handling. I don't like it, I dont mind the beers by the pool but not the pool water



    CHEM,
    It is hard to describe the taste I don't like about what have become of my pool after few years and whatever the lab test showed. It is not like a 1500 PPM salt, no, nothing of that saltiness.
    Maybe best I rephrase it as "not as fresh as I would like" and my friend's pool feel fresher and that Japanese pool feel even fresher according to my friend. Now, my friend spend hours and hours in his pool doing lap swimming with his kids and their instructor for two years now. Its not a fun session, it is a real training.
    My friend is also a diver, in fact my closest dive buddy.


    DMAN,
    When someone knew his pool so well and can comment such praise for the Japanese pool, there must be something really good with the Jap pool. That alone indicated there is something which can be improved, simple right ?

    Whatever I can sense as not being "not as fresh as I would like" in my pool compared to my friend's pool can only be explained by the water test for both pools. I mean those are the only numbers which I or other people can relate which are different between the 2 pools....what else can I give to explain ??
    We all have preference to what taste one prefers and that is personal, but lab report is not about preference it is about what the water contains. While I sense things with my tongue , I show you guys lab test reports to relate to what maybe the reason I am sensing the difference. The answer lies there in that lab test and CHEM decoded what I probably is sensing and what should be reduced to achieve whatever is the "not as fresh as I would like" to be "this is the kind of freshness I like".

    I agree with you DMAN that in general pool does not taste great, that is the reason my pool stands high above the rest because my pool taste great for most people but not for me. Public pool even in 5 star hotel , now for me with my sensitive taste receptors , some taste awful. I have to turn down countless request of fellow dive instructors who wants to rent my pool because they knew how comfy my water is and the water clarity being superior than most. I do not want money in return for reduced clarity and whatever contamination they will bring to my pool. This pool is mine and not under the diving business. I allow use of it for diving, yes, but I choose who and when my pool can be used for dive training and it is not open house.

    You said :
    With 3000+ posts on this forum I would hope you understand I try to help others to the best of my knowledge.


    but the levels and methods we recommend aren't aimed at making the water taste great, rather ensure it is properly sanitized and has minimal effects on our skin, eyes and lungs.



    Yes Dman, I know you want to help other members. I applaud you for that. However bear in mind that my question is for someone who knows chemistry well and not someone who spends time in TPF and only knowing good practice. You know best practice, yes, and so do I . But what you and me can't do is to decode that lab test.

    You can't deter me from trying to achieve my goal, what you can do is , if you have the chemy background, which I obviously don't..........is to decode the lab test and tell me the possible cause/s to what I am sensing for the term "not as fresh as I would like" , that would be a better assistance. The problem lies is when you think I expect too much from my water, which is well beyond your daily pool routine and keep telling me I can not achieve that. My goal is simple, that Japanese pool my friend said is so FRESH. So out there there is a pool which exist and can deliver 7 star swimming experience. I want to learn how to do it. If we are pleased with what we can achieve, because where we live at or the crowd we hang out with can only achieve so much for their pool, and we are not willing to learn more of what others are doing outside our community with better result, we will never progress.

    Like Mas985 put it, I probably have OCD ( ????? compulsibe disorder ), probably I am.

    If I can achieve what I am aiming for, TPF will get the database. That is what forums are for. We share dreams and 101. I dont have water trouble to share for now, I can only share experiments I would like to do.

    Just a simple example, show me a post in TPF where one do water test to the rather complete parameters I do for my pool and my friend's pool. Very rare I suppose.

    The same as what you are assisting for newbie :
    - where is your water test result ?
    - use good test kit please
    With that, we will try to troubleshoot for you..........


    Here I am, I have all the test parameters and will be doing more for Potassium and Lithium soon.
    I needed help, but sure enough only someone like CHEM can help, I expected that already



    So please, do not put my spirit down. Encourage me to experiment, please.
    Success or failure is OK but we get the learning experience, that is the most valuable thing.
    Whatever it will cost me to do this experiment, be it failure or a success the result will be worth it because I know I at least have tried my best ( and with TPF senior members assistance).

    Probably you are right that I eventually have to mimic drinking water "taste" for my pool.
    Whatever I need to do to achieve that, we shall see in months to come.
    Being troublefree is a broad term. I can hire another pool boy to watch the pool full time. It is not a trouble.
    I can change new water every 12-18 months if needed, it is no trouble. All above is only a bit extra cost.
    While I will never go the RO route due to excessive cost and high water reject, I am willing to spend to experiment with other possibilities.

    For now, my pool cost approx US$580ish a month to maintain, inclusive of all test chemicals, pool chemicals, water, new cartridge filters each year, new zeolite every 2+ years, slime bags, new ozone generators UV lamp every 18,000 hours, electric bills and so on etc etc and pool boy labor is free because he works for the dive operation. Cost of structural & facilities maintenance not included, example the sunshade.
    If I buy that mineral bottled water say at US$2,000 per 135K liters and can use if for 18 months , that is only US$111 extra a month. The test parameter will be, the water will be replaced once it failed Drinking Water Standard, even for TDS and the gang kind of accumulation.

    There is nothing more rewarding than when your kids come to you, " Papa, the pool water is no nice".
    US$3.5 a day extra would be worth it.

    Later, when I can get this virgin water with lower TDS and etc etc, I will figure out how to reduce my chlorine use as much as I can. Since every one said that there will be a taste of CL no matter what, OK roger that and lets see how will 1.5PPM FC CL "taste" at much lower TDS and the gang. Need to set up a base parameter first with the virgin water so that my receptors do not read other variables.

    I can only think of ozone generators for now to reduce CL, which I have good experience with it. I am done with silver & copper bull-shi-et.

    The ozone part is tough because of existing plumbing and space but I am thinking of solution.

    There is so much to experiment but the important one now is to decode, what the he-ll is my receptors are reading/sensing as "not as fresh as I would like".

    Happy dreaming for me and thanks for the time guys.
    .
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

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  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Other than general salt levels, especially for sodium, I don't believe your lab test is going to tell you why you don't like the taste of your pool water. If it's not a salty taste but something else, especially a bitter taste, it's more likely to be some organic in small quantities in the water that the lab isn't testing.

    There's one interesting thing about the lab test of your friend's pool and that is that while it has TDS at 828 ppm and chloride at 210 ppm, the sodium is very low at only 11 ppm. I'm guessing that perhaps he is using calcium hypochlorite as his source of chlorine. Unfortunately, the water report isn't listing calcium explicitly, but it only lists 34 ppm for total hardness which would include calcium and magnesium. So something doesn't make sense here with his water report. Do you know what kind of chlorine he is using or adding? If he were using chlorine gas, then he'd need something to raise pH but doing that with something that doesn't have sodium would mean using something like potassium hydroxide or potassium carbonate which I find doubtful.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    Other than general salt levels, especially for sodium, I don't believe your lab test is going to tell you why you don't like the taste of your pool water. If it's not a salty taste but something else, especially a bitter taste, it's more likely to be some organic in small quantities in the water that the lab isn't testing.

    There's one interesting thing about the lab test of your friend's pool and that is that while it has TDS at 828 ppm and chloride at 210 ppm, the sodium is very low at only 11 ppm. I'm guessing that perhaps he is using calcium hypochlorite as his source of chlorine. Unfortunately, the water report isn't listing calcium explicitly, but it only lists 34 ppm for total hardness which would include calcium and magnesium. So something doesn't make sense here with his water report. Do you know what kind of chlorine he is using or adding? If he were using chlorine gas, then he'd need something to raise pH but doing that with something that doesn't have sodium would mean using something like potassium hydroxide or potassium carbonate which I find doubtful.
    Hi Chem,
    My friend's pool is 100% same as mine in the chemicals, though his supplier is different.
    Liquid chlorine for daily use
    Tablets, which I honestly do not know it is Tri or Di, for CYA maintenance only. NO brand on packaging.
    HCL for PH.

    Now if I need to do specific water test, what would I want to look for to complete the TDS or hardness riddle ?
    There is one more test facility which has international recognition called Sucofindo but they are very big and do a lot of things, its more of a certifying body.
    All the lab report I got is from a reputable university. Private one not government one.

    Many many thanks
    SP
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

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  16. Back To Top    #16
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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    SPP...I think you have misunderstood me. I am not trying to discourage or deter you. I perhaps am too much of a realist. For the record, I feel our pools are far superior to any public pool, which I also dislike, and hold my chemistry to a higher standard than most pool owners.

    I applaud you for not settling and wish you the best of luck in your endeavour.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    My friend's pool is 100% same as mine in the chemicals, though his supplier is different.
    Liquid chlorine for daily use
    Tablets, which I honestly do not know it is Tri or Di, for CYA maintenance only. NO brand on packaging.
    HCL for PH.
    Well something isn't right about the water report then, assuming that report was on his pool water that wasn't just freshly replaced (and with its higher chloride and TDS it doesn't look like fresh water). I was going to post again saying that perhaps he is using very expensive lithium hypochlorite since that would be more consistent with the report assuming the lithium hypochlorite was "cut" in concentration using lithium chloride instead of sodium chloride. The concentration is "cut" to around 29% (35% Available Chlorine) because more concentrated lithium hypochlorite is unstable.

    If he is using sodium hypochlorite for regular chlorination, then how can his sodium level be only 11 ppm? Does he have an ion exchange system substituting something for sodium, perhaps potassium (or lithium, though that would be very expensive)? That would be unusual since usually such systems exchange calcium and magnesium for sodium. Let's look at his water report in more detail in terms of charge balance and TDS components like I did with yours.

    210/35.453 + 2*16/96.06 + 6.54/62.00 = 6.36
    Chloride + Sulfate + Nitrate

    11/22.99 + 2*93.5/100.09 + ? + ? = 2.35 + ?
    Sodium + 2*(Calcium + Magnesium) + Potassium + Lithium

    So 4.01 moles/liter missing. If this is Potassium, then that would be 4.01*39.10 = 157 ppm

    TDS from listed substances:
    210 + 16 + 6.54 + 11 + 93.5* = 337
    *Total Hardness as CaCO3
    but TDS was reported as 828 so 491 ppm "missing" (actually more since calcium and magnesium have lower molecular weight than calcium carbonate units).

    For your pool, are the divers in wet suits as well as using scuba gear equipment (tanks, masks)? All that neoprene and other rubber materials may either be sloughing off or reacting with chlorine where even in small amounts it may leave a taste in the water. I remember than when I used to dive, I could certainly smell the material and when doing "practice" in pools or small tanks that same rubbery smell seemed to be in the water as taste.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    SPP...I think you have misunderstood me. I am not trying to discourage or deter you. I perhaps am too much of a realist. For the record, I feel our pools are far superior to any public pool, which I also dislike, and hold my chemistry to a higher standard than most pool owners.

    I applaud you for not settling and wish you the best of luck in your endeavour.
    Ok DMAN, many thanks . Understood that you are a realist. Well, we all each have our own character.
    .
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

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  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    SPP...I think you have misunderstood me. I am not trying to discourage or deter you. I perhaps am too much of a realist. For the record, I feel our pools are far superior to any public pool, which I also dislike, and hold my chemistry to a higher standard than most pool owners.

    I applaud you for not settling and wish you the best of luck in your endeavour.
    Ok DMAN, many thanks . Understood that you are a realist. Well, we all each have our own character.
    .
    Helen
    Dallas Area, 16,000 gal IG, Easytouch 8 computer, Intelliflo 3HP Variable Speed pool pump, Pentair Smart Pump 4x160, Pentair 3/4 HP Booster Pump, FNS 60 DE 60, Mastertemp 400, Rainbow 320, Dual Timer w/ freeze protection, Intellichor SWG, TF100 Test Kit, POOL FILLED AUG 3, 2012, ORDER YOUR TF100 KIT FROM http://tftestkits.net
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  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Now, how fresh is fresh water ?

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    Quote Originally Posted by SPP
    My friend's pool is 100% same as mine in the chemicals, though his supplier is different.
    Liquid chlorine for daily use
    Tablets, which I honestly do not know it is Tri or Di, for CYA maintenance only. NO brand on packaging.
    HCL for PH.
    Well something isn't right about the water report then, assuming that report was on his pool water that wasn't just freshly replaced (and with its higher chloride and TDS it doesn't look like fresh water). I was going to post again saying that perhaps he is using very expensive lithium hypochlorite since that would be more consistent with the report assuming the lithium hypochlorite was "cut" in concentration using lithium chloride instead of sodium chloride. The concentration is "cut" to around 29% (35% Available Chlorine) because more concentrated lithium hypochlorite is unstable.

    If he is using sodium hypochlorite for regular chlorination, then how can his sodium level be only 11 ppm? Does he have an ion exchange system substituting something for sodium, perhaps potassium (or lithium, though that would be very expensive)? That would be unusual since usually such systems exchange calcium and magnesium for sodium. Let's look at his water report in more detail in terms of charge balance and TDS components like I did with yours.

    210/35.453 + 2*16/96.06 + 6.54/62.00 = 6.36
    Chloride + Sulfate + Nitrate

    11/22.99 + 2*93.5/100.09 + ? + ? = 2.35 + ?
    Sodium + 2*(Calcium + Magnesium) + Potassium + Lithium

    So 4.01 moles/liter missing. If this is Potassium, then that would be 4.01*39.10 = 157 ppm

    TDS from listed substances:
    210 + 16 + 6.54 + 11 + 93.5* = 337
    *Total Hardness as CaCO3
    but TDS was reported as 828 so 491 ppm "missing" (actually more since calcium and magnesium have lower molecular weight than calcium carbonate units).

    For your pool, are the divers in wet suits as well as using scuba gear equipment (tanks, masks)? All that neoprene and other rubber materials may either be sloughing off or reacting with chlorine where even in small amounts it may leave a taste in the water. I remember than when I used to dive, I could certainly smell the material and when doing "practice" in pools or small tanks that same rubbery smell seemed to be in the water as taste.
    OK CHEM, I will translate your calculation and ask the lab.
    The lab I was told is a research lab and they should be able to breakdown to the needs you mentioned.

    My friend has ion-exchange, but that if for his raw water to his pool and not treatment for the pool.
    His city water and ground water before entering his house water storage, both get ion exchange.

    ADD ADD : His pool is also leaking a bit, so approx 1000 liters of water is added daily and the water is processed using the ion exchange where the sodium resulted to 10 PPM. I guess being 11 PPM in the pool still too low yah ? Also looking at his lab report for before and after filter+ion exchange, 11 PPM down to 10 PPM, his ion exchange isn't the type you suspected right ?

    Neoprene in water. OK me will test in a bath tub with city water and wear neoprene wetsuit and see how it taste. Later I will add to 0.5 FC ( since CYA is zero ) and see how it taste. This is possible as cause....u sure think of everything........nice

    Many thanks
    SP
    35,000 GL pool. In Ground. Concrete with all white ceramic tiles. Outdoor but shaded.
    Approx 36 ft by 15 feet. 2HP Hayward Super Pump, Hayward Sand Filter with Zelbrite ( Zeolite ), Hayward Cartridge Filter, Aquamatic Silver+Copper Ionizer ( suspended use since Oct 2008 ), Prozone Ozonator, 2 gram/hr, Analog Flowmeter on pipe

    Back Up Pump & Filter on trolley, Pentair 1.5HP + Pentair Cartridge Filter, Slime Bag 1 micron Jumbo Size, downstream of Cartridge

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