CYA over 100

[nomad26]

Hi
Not sure where to start I will try and make this short but I think it's going to be a long post with all the details so I can receive the best help possible.
About 7 years ago or more I installed a Viking Sun coast fiberglass pool, the finish is blue with a sparkle to it. The pool is 6 thousand gallons.
At the time the Viking installer suggested me installing in a FROG automatic mineral and pool chlorinator which I did and have been using it ever since.
My water always looks good and is sparkling and still does today.
My only real complaint is, I have had trouble with chlorine readings when I put new chlorine Paks in the FROG system about every 3-4 weeks .
What happens is the chlorine readings just disappear when I put a new chlorine pak in it.
I usually shock the heck out of it to get it to register again. Sometimes I even put a chlorine floater in the pool until the chlorine comes back.
But the levels are always high when the chlorine readings start to show up again.
I have been told before by a pool shop ( Leslies ) to drain the pool because my CYA levels were to high.
I was told by Viking never to drain this fiberglass pool because it could pop out of the ground .
So I drained it half way and put a pump in the deep end and fresh water in the shallow end and let it run almost over night.
That helped CYA levels down again that was a few years ago.
The big surprise to me came when the water level was half down my pool was no longer blue it was a scaling white.

So that was a few years ago. Today I still have very high CYA levels, my La Motte Color Pro plus 7 digital reader says HI which is over a 120 ppm on CYA levels.
( Yes I plan on getting the tester off your site and not using the digital reader anymore )

My walls on my pool still have white scale on them and I am losing my beautiful blue pool I once had.

So here is plan A.
I am thinking of draining the pool half way again or maybe all the way to get the CYA levels down I searched high and low on the internet and most say the pool will not pop out of the ground when drained . I probably will not drain it all the way because I am to afraid.
I was thinking of washing the sides with muriatic acid while the water was down to get some of the scaling off . Not sure if thats worth my time or not. Any ideas to remove the scaling while the water level is down ? After I put fresh water back I was going to test it with your kit off this site and post the readings and ask for help.
Ok here is Plan B.
Since all my planning over the years has put me with High CYA levels and a pool that is building scale year after year.
I am saying to all the experts out there.
What should I do ? I give up !
I am willing to listen and follow a good plan .
If this helps here are my readings from my test kit today and I went to Leslie's pool supply for a test both were close in readings . Not sure if these tests are important if I need to get this water out of this pool, I did shock the pool 2 days ago because I had no chlorine readings at all when I went to put a new Pak in the frog system.
FAC-6.63
TAC-6.63
CH -280
CYA - Hi over 100
PH- 7.6
phosphates 2000

If need be I am willing to eliminate the FROG SYSTEM even know I have about $200.00 dollars worth of Paks I just bought. I hope there is a way in the plan I could use these paks. I am guessing that is why I have the CYA levels so high ? From using the Frog system ? Maybe its good to not use the Frog system system in the winter months ?
And only use it in the summer when you might need some CYA in the water ?
What ever the case as you can tell I need some direction.
And thats why I am here for help to get me back on track.
One more thought, Is it better to drain a fiberglass pool in the summer when its dry for less chance of it popping up because the ground levels are dry then in the winter ? My soil here in California is like clay hard and packed. Thats why i think there is less a chance of the pool popping out of the ground when the water lever is lowered or drained out of the pool. We don't have high water levels underground here in San Jose California it's a very hot dry climate in the valley.
Bottom line I need help and in easy steps so I can keep it simple for a guy who is stupid enough to try it himself and to cheap to pay a professional.
Thanks so much for reading.
Mark

 

[linen]

Welcome to tfp, nomad26

I see you have posted in this thread: http://www.troublefreepool.com/white-scale-in-fibreglass-pool-t24212-20.html#p323903 PooyguyNJ has given some great advice in there.

I am curious as to how your scaling got there. Do you happen to have drop based tests on ph, TA, CH, cya? Also, are you purposely using salt or borates in your pool?

The reason I ask these questions is they will help us calculate your csi (calcite saturation index). See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/calcium_scaling

For your kind of issue, there is no way around getting your own appropriate test kit. I like the TF-100, most bang for buck and fast shipping.

We do not recommend using the frog system, it adds copper and silver (not positive on the silver) to the pool water which is not needed when maintaining proper FC levels. Copper can stain surfaces and turn blond hair green.

The chlorine packs are trichlor and contain cya. Once cya is in the pool the only reliable way to remove it is drain/refill (or Reverse Osmosis if you are in Arizona or Southern cali where it is available).

I usually shock the heck out of it to get it to register again. Sometimes I even put a chlorine floater in the pool until the chlorine comes back.

The floater is also trichlor and adds cya to your water. What are you using when you "shock the heck out of it"?

 

[nomad26]

Welcome to tfp, nomad26

I see you have posted in this thread: http://www.troublefreepool.com/white-scale-in-fibreglass-pool-t24212-20.html#p323903 PooyguyNJ has given some great advice in there.

I am curious as to how your scaling got there. Do you happen to have drop based tests on ph, TA, CH, cya? Also, are you purposely using salt or borates in your pool?

The reason I ask these questions is they will help us calculate your csi (calcite saturation index). See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/calcium_scaling

For your kind of issue, there is no way around getting your own appropriate test kit. I like the TF-100, most bang for buck and fast shipping.

We do not recommend using the frog system, it adds copper and silver (not positive on the silver) to the pool water which is not needed when maintaining proper FC levels. Copper can stain surfaces and turn blond hair green.

The chlorine packs are trichlor and contain cya. Once cya is in the pool the only reliable way to remove it is drain/refill (or Reverse Osmosis if you are in Arizona or Southern cali where it is available).

I usually shock the heck out of it to get it to register again. Sometimes I even put a chlorine floater in the pool until the chlorine comes back.

The floater is also trichlor and adds cya to your water. What are you using when you "shock the heck out of it"?

Thanks for the reply
Let me take your advice in steps.

1. Do you happen to have drop based tests on ph, TA, CH, cya? Also, are you purposely using salt or borates in your pool?
Not sure what drop based tests are ? I am guessing that is what the TF 100 & K 2006 testers are about ?
I am not using any kind of salt or borates in this pool.
I am new to the abbreviation csi , I will read up on this.

2. I am buying the TSF 100 or the K2006 today I can purchase the K 2006 from Amazon for free with all my points unless I should absolutely by the
TF 100 ?

3. I have been shocking the pool with Leslie's Fresh n Clear a non chlorine shock for years then I ran out so I have been using Walmarts Pool Essentials shock or I have been putting the floater in the pool with chlorine pucks from Costco .

4. I will eliminate the Frog system today

5. I will drain as much water as I can out today. I was hoping to receive a reply on draining a fiberglass pool on this site

6. As soon as I drain the pool and refill it I will post the readings with the new test kit here for help what to do next.

7. PoolguyNJ advice does sound helpful . I am a bit nervous again to drain my pool completely I was hoping to get some support here on if it's a good idea or not to drain a fiberglass pool in my area.

Thanks again for your guidance
Mark

 

[LauraJ]

I have a fiberglass pool (approx 10,000 gal), live in Alabama, and had >100 CYA at the beginning of the summer. Instead of draining the entire pool, I've drained and refilled gradually over the course of a few months. That was mainly from an expense standpoint (re-filling is very expensive for me). If you're afraid of draining the whole thing, could you just do 1/2 or 1/4 at a time? Also, during this, try to only use bleach, no tabs.

I have the K2006 kit. It's saved my sanity! There is a booklet in the kit that is helpful. But, also read everything in Pool School.

 

[nomad26]

I have a fiberglass pool (approx 10,000 gal), live in Alabama, and had >100 CYA at the beginning of the summer. Instead of draining the entire pool, I've drained and refilled gradually over the course of a few months. That was mainly from an expense standpoint (re-filling is very expensive for me). If you're afraid of draining the whole thing, could you just do 1/2 or 1/4 at a time? Also, during this, try to only use bleach, no tabs.

I have the K2006 kit. It's saved my sanity! There is a booklet in the kit that is helpful. But, also read everything in Pool School.

Thanks I am going to order the K2006 now I can get it free on Amazon with my points. I have read its splitting fine hairs between the 2 kits (100)
And thanks for the tip on the drain of the pool .
I did it like you suggested last time , I get a little braver by taking out almost half of the water and then keeping the pump at the deep end and putting fresh water in the shallow end. I am in California its very dry out here I don't think its a problem with high water tables in this area but I am still concerned. It's a small pool only 6000 gallons. One way or another all get the old water out and fresh water in and stop using the FROG system or any kind of tabs . And I will read everything I can in the pool school. I have lots to learn.
Good to be in touch with others with the same kind of pool.
Thanks again

 

[march2012]

I have a fiberglass pool (approx 10,000 gal), live in Alabama, and had >100 CYA at the beginning of the summer. Instead of draining the entire pool, I've drained and refilled gradually over the course of a few months. That was mainly from an expense standpoint (re-filling is very expensive for me). If you're afraid of draining the whole thing, could you just do 1/2 or 1/4 at a time? Also, during this, try to only use bleach, no tabs.

I have the K2006 kit. It's saved my sanity! There is a booklet in the kit that is helpful. But, also read everything in Pool School.

Thanks I am going to order the K2006 now I can get it free on Amazon with my points. I have read its splitting fine hairs between the 2 kits (100)
And thanks for the tip on the drain of the pool .
I did it like you suggested last time , I get a little braver by taking out almost half of the water and then keeping the pump at the deep end and putting fresh water in the shallow end. I am in California its very dry out here I don't think its a problem with high water tables in this area but I am still concerned. It's a small pool only 6000 gallons. One way or another all get the old water out and fresh water in and stop using the FROG system or any kind of tabs . And I will read everything I can in the pool school. I have lots to learn.
Good to be in touch with others with the same kind of pool.
Thanks again

The TF 100 has more of some reagents(like CYA). With the 2006 you can only test CYA a couple of times. Since you are having CYA problems you might want to get a larger bottle of the CYA reagent since you are going to want to test CYA each time you drain/refill. They sell 2 or 8oz bottles on amazon, but I forget which taylor reagent number it is. The 2006 has acid/base demand tests which a lot of regulars dont seem to like, but I really like them and use them to figure out how much acid I need to add.

 

[JohnN]

They also sell a 16 ounce bottle of it on Amazon. But I believe it is cheaper to buy direct from the company (amatoind.com) The reagent number is R-0013.

 

[nomad26]

Thanks March 2012 and John for the tip on buying extra bottle of CYA ( reagent number is R-0013),

RIght now I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with information on this site and where to start.
I know I have to drain 50 to 80 percent of my water out of the pool to get the CYA levels down.
That should be my first step.
Then when I get the new test kit I will test the water and post it on here and see what advice I get and what my next step will be.

I guess I am a bit discouraged because when I put this pool in myself I did allot of work and a bit of research installing the Frog system and now I am being told
To eliminate it . It starts to break down your trust in information.

I am not sure what system to replace it with to automatically get chlorine in the pool.

March 2012 I noticed you have a Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating pump .
How do you like it ?
I had no idea what that was I did a search on it and see it somehow puts liquid chlorine in your pool automatically.
Any benefits with the Stenner compared to a SWG ?

 

[nomad26]

Welcome to tfp, nomad26

I see you have posted in this thread: http://www.troublefreepool.com/white-scale-in-fibreglass-pool-t24212-20.html#p323903 PooyguyNJ has given some great advice in there.

I am curious as to how your scaling got there. Do you happen to have drop based tests on ph, TA, CH, cya? Also, are you purposely using salt or borates in your pool?

The reason I ask these questions is they will help us calculate your csi (calcite saturation index). See: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-school/calcium_scaling

For your kind of issue, there is no way around getting your own appropriate test kit. I like the TF-100, most bang for buck and fast shipping.

We do not recommend using the frog system, it adds copper and silver (not positive on the silver) to the pool water which is not needed when maintaining proper FC levels. Copper can stain surfaces and turn blond hair green.

The chlorine packs are trichlor and contain cya. Once cya is in the pool the only reliable way to remove it is drain/refill (or Reverse Osmosis if you are in Arizona or Southern cali where it is available).

I usually shock the heck out of it to get it to register again. Sometimes I even put a chlorine floater in the pool until the chlorine comes back.

The floater is also trichlor and adds cya to your water. What are you using when you "shock the heck out of it"?

HI
I just got off the phone with the tech at King Technology they manufacture the Pool Frog system.
I thought I would share this information with you so you have it for future reference.

Here is what he said.
The Pool Frog system has no copper in it at all !
Meaning the chlorine PAK and the mineral PAK are free from copper.
These are the two main PAKS that are in the system full time.
The mineral PAK that surrounds the chlorine PAK only has silver in it , and that is coated in lime stone .
The purpose of the silver coated in lime stone in the mineral PAK is to help keep chlorine levels low and sanitize the water .
The only part of the system that has copper in it is there BAM cartridge , (which is optional) that you put in once every 90 days to keep algae out of the pool and that has 3 percent copper in the mix. This BAM PAK is not required only suggested .
( which I have never used) ,
The tech also said that he has never heard of anyone having staining problems with their system,
He also told me that their system requires the pool owner should do a partial drain on the pool each year to keep the CYA levels between 20 - 80.

Explains why my CYA levels are so high. This is something I have not done.

The tech seemed to be very honest and didn't have a flavor of pushing the Frog system as the best out there he was just sharing the facts of the system.

Just wanted to share that information .

 

[chiefwej]

With a pool as small as 6,000 gallons you can use a tarp or plastic sheeting to separate old water and fresh fill water to do a complete water change without fully draining.

 

[nomad26]

With a pool as small as 6,000 gallons you can use a tarp or plastic sheeting to separate old water and fresh fill water to do a complete water change without fully draining.

Sounds like a plan to me.
I am willing to learn and happy to have you tell me a way this can be done.
How would I do that ?

 

[cwuffman]

nomad26,

Our pool was installed just over a year ago. The installation included a trichlor tablet chlorinator. In just one year I began to get algae even though the pool store told me my chlorine and stabilizer were good (stabilizer printed out at 100ppm, but was actually 130 or higher). The pool store began to sell me more "stuff" to get rid of the algae. Blah, blah, blah, blah - $ $ $ $ $ $...............

Each trichlor "chlorinator" tablet was adding 1.15 ppm to my stabilizer level. One 50 lb. bucket added 115 ppm cya!!!

I found this site and at first was confused because the advice here seems COMPLETELY different from the pool installer and pool stores. I began to follow the advice on this site (and drained 2/3 of the water) and everything now makes complete sense. I know what is happening in my pool and how to control it.

Anyway, my point is: You have to decide which system you trust and stick with it. If you ask advice from multiple sources (especially the manufacturers and distributers of unnecessary chemicals and equipment) you'll just remain confused. If you continue to read posts on this site you'll find multitudes of former money pit problems that are now Trouble Free Pools.

 

[nomad26]

Thanks Carl
I agree with you 100 percent.
I am a fitness trainer and I give the same advice all the time.

I have about 8 months of Frog chlorine Paks left that I want to use before I change systems.
Each Pak is $15.00 dollars. If I have to I can drain again next summer my pool is not that big

When the new test kit comes I am going to keep a very close watch out on the CYA levels.
And everyday that goes by I am learning more to help me choose what system I will try next.
I noticed you have a Stenner (Stenner 45MPHP10 Peristaltic Pump and 15 gal carboy to be installed by the weekend)
I would like to learn more about this and how you like it.

Mark

 

[march2012]

Thanks March 2012 and John for the tip on buying extra bottle of CYA ( reagent number is R-0013),

RIght now I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with information on this site and where to start.
I know I have to drain 50 to 80 percent of my water out of the pool to get the CYA levels down.
That should be my first step.
Then when I get the new test kit I will test the water and post it on here and see what advice I get and what my next step will be.

I guess I am a bit discouraged because when I put this pool in myself I did allot of work and a bit of research installing the Frog system and now I am being told
To eliminate it . It starts to break down your trust in information.

I am not sure what system to replace it with to automatically get chlorine in the pool.

March 2012 I noticed you have a Stenner 45mhp10 automatically chlorinating pump .
How do you like it ?
I had no idea what that was I did a search on it and see it somehow puts liquid chlorine in your pool automatically.
Any benefits with the Stenner compared to a SWG ?

SWG is the preferred method. however if you have natural stone coping eventually the salt will cause it to flake away (in under 2 years). Several of my neighbors have had to replace all their coping after just a few years and installers in my area wont install SWG with natural stone coping. SWG and the stenner are about the same total cost of ownership, but the stenner requires a bit more work since you have to fill up the bleach tank every couple of weeks. The SWG is more upfront but virtually free to operate and then replacement cells @$500-800 every 3-5 years or so. I use about 2/3 gallon of 8% bleach a day in the summer ($2/day) and the stenner cost $300. People who have done the cost comparisons say that SWG actually comes out slightly cheaper than bleach. If I had concrete coping I would have gone salt.

All that being said, I love my stenner pump. I have been on about 2 months of trips this year up to 2 weeks at a time and it has maintained my FC levels.

 

[march2012]

Thanks Carl
I agree with you 100 percent.
I am a fitness trainer and I give the same advice all the time.

I have about 8 months of Frog chlorine Paks left that I want to use before I change systems.
Each Pak is $15.00 dollars. If I have to I can drain again next summer my pool is not that big

When the new test kit comes I am going to keep a very close watch out on the CYA levels.
And everyday that goes by I am learning more to help me choose what system I will try next.
I noticed you have a Stenner (Stenner 45MPHP10 Peristaltic Pump and 15 gal carboy to be installed by the weekend)
I would like to learn more about this and how you like it.

Mark

BBB isnt necessarily about a specific set of chemicals, it is about understanding your pool chemistry. Lots of people still use pucks for example when they open their pool or when they go on vacation. But they know how much CYA it will add and how it will impact their pH. None of the chemicals are inherently bad, the goals is to understand how everything works together. However the more things you add the more complex the interactions become.

The 101 level focuses mostly on just adding bleach for FC/CYA because that has the most impact. As you get more advanced you can start to add in other chemicals (like borates) or periodic use of pucks because you understand the limitations.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Here's my 2 cents - or less - worth of advice.

You can use whatever you want to chlorinate your pool. The trick to BBB is to understand the chemistry and the impact your choices have on your options. If you go with the Frog and you do the partial drains to manage CYA and you monitor CYA from time to time you should be able to keep the pool going without too many problems - and when problems occur you'll understand what you have to do to make them go away. This means committing to potentially doing partial draining or using high amounts of bleach/liquid chlorine in the event of algae outbreaks.

The frog may also not reach the FC levels recommended here so some supplemental bleach/liquid chlorine may be needed from time to time to keep the levels to the amount needed to keep algae at bay without using the copper packs. Copper is a double edged sword and can absolutely cause hair to go green and walls to go green.

As for your scaling you seem to have three options:

1) Lower the water and acid wash. The risk of this depends on your water table. You should be safe if the water table is much lower than the deep end of the pool.

2) Lower your CSI (Calcium Scaling Index) to a low negative number like -0.6 or -0.7 to try to lift the scaling. You'll need to scrub and have patience. CSI is impacted by pH, TA, CH, etc so there's a bit involved in trying to maintain a specific CSI number but it is something you can accomplish.

3) Live with it.

With respect to automatic chlorination - you have several options:

1) Pump and liquid chlorine.
2) Liquidator
3) SWG

The liquidator is the cheapest but has potential issues with scale and crud forming in the valves causing a bit of work for you to keep up with. This seems to be mostly an issue with high TA/CH in the pool but I'm not sure there is consensus on this. The size of your pool makes this option quite attractive in some ways as they 8 Gallon version would last quite a while for your 6K gallon volume.

Pump/Liquid Chlorine is not cheap and still requires you to get liquid chlorine and store it

SWG - or more accurately SWCG (Salt Water Chlorine Generator) is the least cumbersome of the options but has a limited lifespan on the cell and typically needs to be over-sized compared to the manufacturers recommendations otherwise you will run the pump more than is optimal (higher cost to operate). But an SWG does mean salt in the pool which you may object to (most people don't find it bothers them - in fact they like the feel of the water with salt).

None of these (nor the Frog for that matter) can accurately sense when the pool needs more chlorine - they all are based on a set amount of flow when they are on. This means you still need to test periodically and verify that levels are good. There's no shortcut for good testing...

 

[Smykowski]

I have about 8 months of Frog chlorine Paks left that I want to use before I change systems.
Each Pak is $15.00 dollars. If I have to I can drain again next summer my pool is not that big

Mark

If you're going to switch to BBB anyways, you're best off dumping the frog now. Those chlorine paks are some of the most cost inefficient ways you can use to chlorinate your pool. Not to mention the fact that the mineral pak is adding metals to your pool (which you definitely don't want). If you can return them, that'll pay for your kit, and you'll have money left over to buy bleach.

I too am a former frog user, so just food for thought.

Sent from my Exhibit II using Tapatalk.

 

[cwuffman]

march2012: I agree with you completely. In hindsight, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have installed the tablet chlorinator or purchased all of the trichlor tablets that I have in the garage now. But since they are there, I will use them AS NEEDED for extended vacations and if I ever need to increase CYA. Also, as you stated, the SWCG would have been better had it not been for the steel furniture and stone coping around my pool. The key is understanding the chemistry, and that is what this site is all about.....unlike a lot of the pool industry.

Mark: I plan to take some pictures of the Stenner install and update on how it works in the "Chemical Automation and The Liquidator" section.

 

[nomad26]

[attachment=1:1tdtxo0f]th_POOL1IMGP2430.jpg[/attachment:1tdtxo0f]

march2012: I agree with you completely. In hindsight, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have installed the tablet chlorinator or purchased all of the trichlor tablets that I have in the garage now. But since they are there, I will use them AS NEEDED for extended vacations and if I ever need to increase CYA. Also, as you stated, the SWCG would have been better had it not been for the steel furniture and stone coping around my pool. The key is understanding the chemistry, and that is what this site is all about.....unlike a lot of the pool industry.

Mark: I plan to take some pictures of the Stenner install and update on how it works in the "Chemical Automation and The Liquidator" section.

I would love to see this install especially the wiring into the electrical box !
And I agree with you about understanding the chemistry . This is where my problems started In the past years I have never really took the time to understand the chemistry . It looks like I have found the right spot to start learning I am feeling allot of support on this site already Hopefully I can reverse my mistakes and get a system going. I still have lots to learn before I choose which system I want.
I Like the fact that some people on here don't say there is only one way and thats the best way. What I am getting is there are a few ways to keep a pool in shape you just need to understand the chemicals and the chemistry . I tried to attach a picture of my scale build up and my slate spill over to get comments if this is going to be a problem if I choose to add a SWG ?

 

[nomad26]

UnderWaterVanya
That is a great reply and excellent advice . Thanks for taking the time to share you knowledge.
I am feeling lots of support on this site and am appreciating all the replies !
Keep the advice coming ! And I will post my progress . Right now I am waiting for my test kit before I drain the pool.
I am excited to get the process going