Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 27

Thread: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

  1. Back To Top    #1
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    I have maintained a 40,000 gallon pool for 15 years, taking pride and pleasure in sparkling water. It is a 50 year old concrete pool, which I had rehab with new lines, skimmers and a D.E. Nautilus 48, filter to name a few replacements, about 12 years ago.

    Three weeks ago, my Nautilus filter cracked during the night with the filter running. I woke up to find the system shut down. Puzzled, I started it up and found water gushing from a crack, so I called my pool company for a new filter.

    My pool company strongly suggested a Jandy cartridge 340 filter ($2,300 including replacement of three valves) and installed it about five days later, about three weeks ago. The problems:
    1. My water is cloudy. Can see the bottom leaf, but it is not clear.
    2. I have bubbles coming from four return lines (two floor, two side walls)
    3. The pool company told me to hire a leak detection company ($300)
    4. They said the lines they installed have nothing to do with the bubbles
    5. I feel abandon ... Searching for answers as to why after 15 years, I have leaks, bubbles and cloudy water. I say its something with the installation or choice of filter. They just say to call a leak detection company.

    I went to another pool store today to have my water checked, trying to eliminate the cloudy water issue. They said my water was chemically perfect. They suggested that the cartridge filter sometimes need clarifiers. They told me to add a clarifier and 3lbs more shock ( I had shocked last night with 8 lbs of calcium hypochlorite). Came home and I did the clarifier and three more pounds of calcium hypo and the water is WORSE! I can barely see my auto cleaner in the deep end!

    My pool is about 10 feet higher and 20 feet away from my pool equipment room, which seems to be creating high flow rates. My skimmers are swirling strong. My pump is a Hayward 200 amp. The basket is swirling strong with some bubbles. It should be noted that the bubbles have decreased substantially over the last three days. Could I have had air in the lines from the install that is slowly dissipating?

    I live in Pennsylvania, so it is pool closing time, which is putting pressure on me to trouble shoot now before I close the pool and pay the pool company.

    Any guesses to what could cause these problems with the installation of a new filter? How would you suggest I proceed with finding the solution? I do have the leak detection company scheduled for Tuesday, September 4th.

    Lucy
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  2. Back To Top    #2

    In the Industry

    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    30,083

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Welcome to the forum.

    Let's take the issues one at a time. The air in your system is a suction side air leak and, if you had no air in the returns before, then the new motor installation has allowed that leak to occur.....they should fix it. This refers to questions 2 & 4 whicxh I think are closely related.

    That your water is cloudy and getting worse sounds like a pool chemistry issue but I cannot comment (without wildly guessing) on it unless you can post a complete set of test results.

    I don't get the leak detection??? Is your pool leaking?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    The pool company is telling me that there is a "leak" causing the bubbles and that I had to call a leak detection company to find the air leak that is causing the bubbles in the system.

    The filter installation company is the same pool company who usually tests my water. I went to this other store today, but they use the test strip method and I didn't get a printout today. I do have a limited test kit:

    Chlorine: 5
    ph: 7.4
    TA: 120

    Other info: My CYA could be high because it is the end of the year. I usually add calcium hardness in the beginning of the year, but it wasn't necessary this year. Since I have been using calcium hypo as my shock, could high calcium levels cause cloudiness? I know this isn't very complete info, but it is all I have.

    If I buy a test kit now, will it still be good for opening next year?

    Thank you for you comment regarding the pool company being responsible. They keep saying they didn't touch the incoming lines during the installation. I'll push back harder.

    Do you think I should go ahead with the leak detection company?
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  4. Back To Top    #4

    In the Industry

    duraleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Sebring, Florida
    Posts
    30,083

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Do you think I should go ahead with the leak detection company?
    Is the water in your pool actually leaking out? It doesn't sound like it.

    The air leak causing the bubbles in your pool is not what leak detection companies look for. I think there has been some miscommunication between you and the company who replaced your pump.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    There is no water leaking out. The communication has been in writing. They "educated" me on where air leaks occur, which was "nowhere" they touched during the installation of the Jandy cartridge filter. They told me air leaks occurs from the skimmers into the pool equipment room.

    i am going ahead with the leak detection company. They will be here at 2:30 tomorrow. I need to trouble shoot the problem before I close the pool AND before I write any checks. I could never sell my house with the pool operating this way.

    The installing pool company told me that the leak detection company was the only one who could find my air leak in the system, insisting that nothing they did during the installation would "create" the air leak I am experiencing. The installing company had no way of correcting it because they didn't cause it. They want their $2,300 for the install of Jandy cartridge filter and valves. The leak is my problem. Since I can't prove them wrong unless I call in the leak detection folks, I figure I have no choice.

    Tonight I did a couple tests. I shut one skimmer down. The result... No bubbles and the pump basket clear. When I did the opposite skimmer, I had tons of bubbles and the basket was swirling with air....could not see the bottom of the basket.

    Any ideas? Does it seem that it is isolated to a line and I could have an air leak?

    Thanks for listening. I feel very vulnerable with these pool people. I need second opinions and guidance in how to handle. I am seeing visions of $1,000's flying out of my bank account.
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,347

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    When you were pulling from the skimmer that was leaking in air, did you check it to see if the weir was stuck or if it was creating a vortex an sucking in air? Since the other skimmer works without leaking in air, it certainly points to something in that one skimmer or piping. Is there a 3-way valve for selecting between the skimmers?
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  7. Back To Top    #7
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    When you were pulling from the skimmer that was leaking in air, did you check it to see if the weir was stuck or if it was creating a vortex an sucking in air? Since the other skimmer works without leaking in air, it certainly points to something in that one skimmer or piping. Is there a 3-way valve for selecting between the skimmers?
    Thank you for helping. Not sure how to check "weir"? There are four valves for the skimmer side. Two directly in front of the pump. Two up near the pool deck. When I did my test, I alternately close the valves at the pump, NOT at the pool.
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  8. Back To Top    #8
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,347

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    The weir is the flapper in the skimmer throat. It should move freely and float just under the surface of the water when the water is flowing into the skimmer. Also there should not be a vortex in the skimmer when the water is flowing into it.

    I'm not sure why there are 4 valves if you only have 2 skimmers. Can you post a pic of the setup?
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    You are the best!!! Thank you for talking to me. I am not at home now, but will be this afternoon at 2:30 when the "leak detectors" are there. I will ask them to show me the weir. After running with "lots" of bubles for three weeks, yesterday I was down to a shimmer of bubbles from the two inlets on the bottom floor of the shallow end. Last night it rained hard and my pool water level is high. There are NO bubbles. I repeated the test of shutting off one valve and then the other.... one valve results with NO bubbles and the other still creates a vortex in the skimmer basket.

    the two valves at the pool deck control the water for four inlets, two on the floor of the shallow and two on the side walls of the deep end. When I close the pool, I need to shut one set of inlets using the valves at the pool deck, so I can blow air out and cap for the winter. Then I repeat the process with the other vavle at the pool deck to blow out the other two lines. The two valves near the pump control which skimmer is closed and opened. I'll take pictures when I'm home this afternoon. I will probably know more after talking with the guys that are coming today. I am feeling that this can't be some major line leak, which is making me feel less panic. I love my pool!
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  10. Back To Top    #10
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,347

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    If you're creating a vortex in the skimmer it's probably either the basket is wrong or missing or the weir is sticking or missing. If it's neither of those you may need to put something in the skimmer basket to disrupt the flow and stop the vortex from starting.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  11. Back To Top    #11
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    The leak detection guy checked all the lines. I have a leak
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  12. Back To Top    #12
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    I accidentally hit the post button and can't edit from my iPad for some reason. The leak detection company came today. I have a leak in the one of the skimmer lines. The good news is that the rest of the lines are good. Not a crisis because it's a short run, but a four sq ft portion of my newly resurfaced deck would have to be dug up and resurfaced to match the rest. I guess it could have been worse.

    Here's the theory on why the bubbles slowly disappeared? The ground around the skimmer basket was dry after being down for five days. Once the system started up, the leak took three weeks to saturate the ground to the point it didn't suck air into the system. Does that make sense?

    I still have cloudy water with new filter. I will go to the pool store to get the water tested, until I get my test kit. I have shut down the one skimmer to see if the filter works better.
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  13. Back To Top    #13
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,347

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    That sorta makes sense. Dry soil will contract and also allow more air in, whereas saturated soil will expand and there's not much air in it, and it will help seal off a small leak as it expands. It doesn't take much of a leak to leak in a bunch of air.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Thank you for supporting me through this. The water is clearer this morning, which says that the filter is working better with the leaking skimmer shut off. I expect the water will be crystal clear by this afternoon.... 24 hours.

    Will the pool be fine running with one skimmer until I get the money to rehab the skimmer lines? Through next season?

    Lucy
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  15. Back To Top    #15
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,347

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    It'll be fine running with one skimmer. A lot of pools only have one. Be glad you have a spare!
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  16. Back To Top    #16
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Final update: Pool water is perfectly clear! The air leak caused the filter to be inefficient. Turning off the leaking skimmer worked.

    Thanks again.
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  17. Back To Top    #17
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    I received my k-2006 test kit. I have to admit, I was intimidated when I opened it up!

    I just worked through the testing to get ready to close the pool. The one I cannot figure out is chlorine. It took 38 drops of r-0871 to make the water clear. Since I used the 25 ml level, I multiplied by 2 to get 76. free chlorine is calculated in the charts as 2.0-4.0. Where does 76 fit in? My pool is 38-40,000 gallons. 44x19 rectangle, 10ft deep to 4ft shallow. Did I miss a calculation?

    FC ( 76 ) ???
    TA 110
    CH 180
    CYA 110
    PH 7.2

    Water is perfectly clear. 82 degrees. Using one skimmer.

    Assuming you answer with the calculation I missed and my chlorine is good.... Should I still shock before closing? Add algaecide? It's going to be in the seventies during the day and 45 at night..night this coming week.

    Thanks. This the first time I do not have the pool store tell me what to buy.
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    I found how to video on "YouTube". I forgot the decimal point! My chlorine level is 7.6. Since my CYA is 110, I am thinking the chlorine is OK that high.... Right?

    I am not sure if I should do anything with my calcium hardness, which is 180. I have 10 lbs of calcium hardness increaser.... Should I use it to get it high before closing?

    Thanks
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    With a CYA of 110 ppm, your FC needs to be at least 8.2 ppm or so to prevent algae growth under any algae nutrient conditions. So you could get your FC even higher. You should probably wait until your pool water is cold (say, 50F) before closing since that will make it much more likely to not open the pool with algae in the spring, assuming you open it when the water is still cold. Hopefully between the partial drain for closing and the winter rains the water will get diluted and lower your CYA.

    As for increasing CH, yes you want to do that because you have a concrete pool and it would be good to have the water balanced for closing.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Lrooth's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Pittsburgh
    Posts
    101

    Re: New filter, bubbles, cloudy water - help please.

    Appreciate the help. I will add some calcium hardness increaser and get the chlorine at a higher level.

    Regarding waiting until the water is 50 degrees.
    ... To close I was told I had to blow out and plug the two floor returns. That means getting in the pool in 50 degree water! . That's why I typically close early while the water is still warm. I must admit, my spring openings are difficult. I usually see very dark green water every Spring! I shock it back over a period of a month every year. I wouldn't mind trying a new routine after 15 years.

    If we lower the water From four feet to two feet, do we still need to blow and plug the floor returns? I am in Pennsylvania, where we can get to the teens, but average 30 degrees. By Spring the water levels reach the bottom of the skimmers from rain and snow.

    Thanks... Lucy
    Lucy
    40K gal, painted plaster, Pentair FNS Plus 48, Hayward Super Pump 2 HP, Hayward H-Series-250, 50 years old, 3-month swimming season

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •