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Thread: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

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    y_not's Avatar
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    Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I'm adjusting my TA as per the pool school, it's 160!! and pH holds @ 7.8, all the time, can't keep it down.

    Well I'm on my 1st big dose of MA, pH down to 7.0, nice and orange on the phenol red test.

    I don't have a fountain or any sort of rigged up PVC type of home-made gadget.
    So I just pointed my return up, using a 45deg 1.25" elbow I got for about 35c at Lowes.
    Made lots of splashing, but couldn't get it to make any tiny bubbles.
    So I ran it overnight, made a lovely chlorine smell, but no pH rise, exactly the same this morning.

    So I'll have to rig up something niftier.
    Until then, the kids want to swim later, if the water warms up enough It's 65 atm!! YIKES!!

    Is it safe to swim in water /w that low of a pH? IE. it won't burn skin or singe off hair, or catch heads on fire, right? Just burning eyes, yeah?
    All my other levels are golden, except a CH problem from fill water I'm not tackling yet.

    Please advise, anxious kids are inquiring, or will be soon that is.
    Thanks ya'll!
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
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    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Yes, it is safe, but some may have a little eye irritation. Your kids splashing around will help raise the pH.
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    160 isn't that high. There is no urgent need to get it down. Just try to keep the pH at about 7.3 to 7.4 and the TA will come down and the kids will be able to swim. Add the muriatic acid when there will be no swimming for at least an hour.

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnT
    Yes, it is safe, but some may have a little eye irritation. Your kids splashing around will help raise the pH.
    I figured, but just wanted to check to be safe. Didn't want any melted kids or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    160 isn't that high. There is no urgent need to get it down. Just try to keep the pH at about 7.3 to 7.4 and the TA will come down and the kids will be able to swim. Add the muriatic acid when there will be no swimming for at least an hour.
    Really, it's not? Why, what's the record then? LOL

    I just measured TA, it only went down by 10.
    I did do a 10ml sample though, and followed the adjusted procedure according to the Extended Test Kit Directions.

    I presume it is less accurate that way, but by that much?
    Poolcalc says 20oz of MA to bring pH from 7.8 to 7.0.
    But if I use the "Effects of adding chemicals" bit at the bottom for 20oz 31.45% MA, I get a pH drop down to 6.34 and a TA drop of 24.
    Well I know that pH est. is wrong, it goes more inline with what the calc above says in the pH current/target section /w my TA set to 160.

    I know it has the disclaimer that pH adjustments may not be accurate, and it assumes a TA of 80-120. So I keyed that in up top in the TA section of the calc. I actually had to go clear down to a TA of 40 in the calculator to with my pH target set to 6.34, in order to get that number of ounces.
    So I'd say it's waaaayyyyyyyyy off.

    Just thought I'd throw that in there.

    So how is one supposed to know how much of a TA drop you'll really get with each MA dose?

    I guess you just have to add it and keep testing the TA so you know how much MA to add next, yeah?
    How off is that 10ml TA testing sample as opposed to the 25ml?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    160 ppm would only be a problem with really high calcium levels. As long as your calcium is not super high, then there is no risk from a 160 ppm TA. Just use the pool calculator to determine how much acid is needed to lower the pH to about 7.2 or 7.3.

    Use the 25 ml sample for best accuracy.

    I would limit the amount of acid to about 10 ounces per dose.

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Just aim for about 7.3 and turn the kids loose. They'll aerate it for you.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    160 ppm would only be a problem with really high calcium levels. As long as your calcium is not super high, then there is no risk from a 160 ppm TA. Just use the pool calculator to determine how much acid is needed to lower the pH to about 7.2 or 7.3.

    Use the 25 ml sample for best accuracy.

    I would limit the amount of acid to about 10 ounces per dose.
    I do have crazy high calcium, you can see it everywhere in the water.
    Hence my concern with getting the TA down.

    However, I haven't tested the CH yet due to lack of a speed stir. Wish I knew it was kinda required for that test.
    Think I'll use an itty bitty baby spoon
    I checked our well water reports, the city wells into the lava aquifer, we're on city water, but they get it out of the ground here. The water filters down through the lava into a lava rock water table 1000+ feet down.

    Calcium, filtered mG/L as Ca is 6.0.
    Hardness, total mG/L as CaCO3 is 39.
    One aquafer is 9.0 & 58 respectively. I'm not sure which one they pull "our" water from where we live.
    The city information is useless, they don't list any of the metals, hardness, pH, nuttin!! Dumb!
    No idea how to convert that to PPM, but from what I have Googled, it seems to be a pretty direct conversion.
    If that's the case, or if that's not high, then it's coming from somewhere else as we have calcium scale on everything here.

    Why do you suggest limiting the amount of acid I put in at one time?

    I was reading that when you're trying to lower the TA, as the pH rises back up, it's best to drop it down again with MA when it hits the low 7's, not sure what number. As opposed to letting it ride all the way back up and settle at a higher number. The consensus is that this lowers TA faster when you have a ways to go with it.
    What's the word on this?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I think you're just spinning wheels here.

    TA is not that big of a deal unless you have high CH, which you don't know. I mean, c'mon, you drink the same water and shower in it without any ill effects!

    The reason we advocate small pH changes for a long period of time rather than one huge blast of acid is twofold: 1) you want to keep the pH in the comfort zone for swimming; it's more important that you enjoy the pool than have 'ideal" alkalinity, and 2) low pH will probably damage the pool heater and quite possibly etch the plaster.

    Can you post a full set of test results? 'Golden" is a rather imprecise reading.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    That's what I do, my wheels spin, always, they never stop. I'm like an engine that never quite idles.

    So sue me! :P

    How do you know I drink it... hmmm?
    Maybe I'm a hippie who's scared of chlorine MAAANNN!!
    Yeah, I drink it. Shower in it too, I have melted a time or 2, but they reconstructed me. I got all the horses and all the king's men to help out. :P

    As for the CH, why doesn't water that leaves spots behind and coats a car from the sprinkler in a white sheet, why doesn't that count? Surely that counts for something... no?
    I mean everyone seems to ignore it, like baaahhhhh, there's nothing wrong with your water. Well why does it look that way then, eh?

    I can fill the bathtub with tap water, same as what filled the pool, open my eyes under water and it's cloud city! Like baaaad fog.
    No aeration or anything, I let it settle.

    I'm more than happy to do the CH test, but no one has yet to address my concerns with doing it sans Speedstir.

    I'll get one, just not right now. Freight is half the cost of the unit almost. Freaking YIKES!!
    Can't they just slap it out 1st class and call it a day? Oy Vey.
    I know Mr. Blue looses things, but they aren't that bad as of late, probably because of their Flea-Bay business.

    So any tips for coming out with a successful CH test via hand agitation?
    I read one user posted he took his to a pool store, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, but still, they actually used a Taylor kit, but instead of agitating it with wrist action, the guy there used a tiny spoon and stirred vigorously.
    That sounds pretty neato! I'm thinking a vice though? How else would you stir, titrate & hold the 'wessel' at the same time, that's like 3 hands. HAHA

    Yes, I have reviewed and re-reviewed and re-re-re-reviewed the extended test kit directions. So I have got the tips there, down pat.
    Any other advice, do you have to go fast or do long mixes, any adl. secrets?
    I'm also planning on using a 10ml sample to save on reagent, since I suspect it's going to be quite high.

    As far as TA not mattering much, I know it doesn't so long as pH is stable. Which it is in my pool, but it's too stinking high and won't stay down. It burns the eyes a bit at times and I know CL isn't as effective at higher pH. So I want to get it down.

    And yes, all my levels are golden, golden is a perfect measure of things, don'cha know??

    FC: 5ppm
    *Never dips below 2ppm & dose at 5.
    CC: 0.5 (Juuussstt barely even a sign of pink)
    TC: I know you can add.
    pH: Was 7.8 all the time. now 7.2
    TA: 150
    *Post MA dose
    CYA: 30
    CH: Didn't do, not confident enough on that to dive in yet.

    So yeah, see, those are golden. No I haven't done an OCLT, I want to, just haven't, once I knock out, I don't get up early enough to do it. BRUWWHAHAHA
    I'll do that soon.

    Thanks for all your help, that goes for everyone as well.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I did not have any problem doing ANY Of the tests without the speed stir. I DO put the top on the tube to make sure I do not lose any of the water and around I go!

    Go ahead and do the test! Shoot I did all of the test the minute I got my test kit just for fun! Ohhhhhh look at the pretty colors! Husband just shook his head!

    You have come this far now go all of the way!

    Kim
    TFP Moderator 33x52 round AG 25,600 gals Sand Filter 1.5hp Pump - 2 Speed, SLAM, Pool School, Recommended Levels, Recommended Chemicals, Pool Math, Chlorine/CYA Chart, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Here is an example of a pool with higher TA:
    another-green-cloudy-intex-t51356.html#p421504

    TA of 625...

    However it is not a pool I would emulate. As others have said TA is a low priority item unless really low or you have a CSI index that is out of whack.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I've never noticed time to be a problem with the CH test, like it is with the FAS-DPD test.

    So, find the cap that came with your vials. Measure out your ten ml. Put in 10 drops of R-0010. Cap it and swirl for thirty seconds. Then add the R-0011L. Swirl it until it mixes, no blobs left. Put the R-0012 in 4 drops at a time. Cap it and give it a minute of vigorous shaking between drops. When it goes from pinkish to lavender, put the drops in one at a time and give it a minute of mixing. It might take a long time to go blue from lavendar. You shouldn't need anything else to do the test. Most people can shake a vial in one hand while they drink a beer with the other.

    Once you have a base reading, future tests are easier. I know, even after draining to water the lawn, that my CH won't be below 700, so I start by adding 20 drops initially, and go up by two's.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats
    I did not have any problem doing ANY Of the tests without the speed stir. I DO put the top on the tube to make sure I do not lose any of the water and around I go!
    A top came with yours? Really?
    I didn't get any caps, tops or covers for the tubes.
    Guess I'll have to try some cling wrap stuff, the kind you run your finger around the rim to adhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats
    Go ahead and do the test! Shoot I did all of the test the minute I got my test kit just for fun!
    Haha, that was my plan, but I was slammed busy and only wanted to do it during the day on my 1st try, for maximum light. So I had to wait like 2 days or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats
    Ohhhhhh look at the pretty colors! Husband just shook his head!
    Oooohhhh YEAH!! Silly DH.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimkats
    You have come this far now go all of the way!

    Kim
    Yeah, I'm going to go do it here in a bit, need to find something to cap it with 1st, as I keep sloshing stuff out. Sometimes I just need encouragement on things if I get it in my head that it can't be done with what I have or what not.

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderWaterVanya
    Here is an example of a pool with higher TA:
    another-green-cloudy-intex-t51356.html#p421504

    TA of 625...

    However it is not a pool I would emulate. As others have said TA is a low priority item unless really low or you have a CSI index that is out of whack.
    HAHA! What a coincidence, I have actually read that thread before.
    So high TA even with high pH that just won't stay down?
    I recall reading that lowering TA is necessary in that case as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320
    I've never noticed time to be a problem with the CH test, like it is with the FAS-DPD test.

    So, find the cap that came with your vials. Measure out your ten ml. Put in 10 drops of R-0010. Cap it and swirl for thirty seconds. Then add the R-0011L. Swirl it until it mixes, no blobs left. Put the R-0012 in 4 drops at a time. Cap it and give it a minute of vigorous shaking between drops. When it goes from pinkish to lavender, put the drops in one at a time and give it a minute of mixing. It might take a long time to go blue from lavendar. You shouldn't need anything else to do the test. Most people can shake a vial in one hand while they drink a beer with the other.

    Once you have a base reading, future tests are easier. I know, even after draining to water the lawn, that my CH won't be below 700, so I start by adding 20 drops initially, and go up by two's.
    Thanks for the pointers Richard!!

    Are you saying I can add a chunk of my necessary drops, right at the beginning, then just do the initial shake of those, before doing 1 or 2 at a time to reach my endpoint? That way I don't have to shake 50 drops, one at a time, spending an hour doing it. LOL

    Also, like I mentioned above, I don't have any caps. Didn't know there were supposed to be any in the kit.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I performed the CH test /w the 10ml sample.
    Didn't get any of the fading endpoints or anything.

    I searched all over the house, checked nearly every medicine bottle cap and everything I could find, nothing worked. Don't have any of the Saran stuff atm.

    Ended up using a milk jug cap, works good enough for the time being.

    Sooo much easier that way.
    I went until I got a really vivid blue and it wouldn't go any farther, not counting the last drop that didn't yield a color change.

    10 drops X 25 = 250 CH

    So does this explain the cloudy water?
    Here's my thread on that.
    Should I switch back to that thread now?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    The new test kits don't have the lids for the vials. No really need for them. A CH level of 250 isn't high enough to cause cloudy water in 95% of cases. If its cloudy
    I'd suggest oclt to see if you've got stuff growing.

    The ch test can be done by hand. Check out the YouTube video for directions.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/tf100testki ... sults_main




    Ps....I
    Did quickly read over the threads and I'm sure I missed some details.

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo
    The new test kits don't have the lids for the vials. No really need for them. A CH level of 250 isn't high enough to cause cloudy water in 95% of cases. If its cloudy
    I'd suggest oclt to see if you've got stuff growing.

    The ch test can be done by hand. Check out the YouTube video for directions.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/tf100testki ... sults_main

    Ps....
    I did quickly read over the threads and I'm sure I missed some details.
    Planning on doing an OCLT.
    Well that's kinda a bummer, no caps that is, for those of us that are terrible at agitating. My arm & wrist likes to lock up and quit twitching, it just doesn't respond. I have always been that way, it's weird.
    So having that lid on it makes a big difference for me, I'm able to agitate it more with larger shakes of the hand and wrist, those are easier for me to do than those small tiny twitches.

    Which threads are you referring to, the threads that referenced high CH, or this thread & the one I linked to?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    I'm able to agitate it more with larger shakes of the hand and wrist,
    Swirl when mixing the solutions.....do not shake.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Adjusting TA, trying to raise pH, kids wanna swim!!

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    I'm able to agitate it more with larger shakes of the hand and wrist,
    Swirl when mixing the solutions.....do not shake.
    The Taylor videos actually say "swirl" yet the video shows the tester "agitating" or "shaking" his/her wrist back/forth.
    They seem to mince their words with their actions.

    In the end, I think it's OK, because I noticed if you agitate it right, it does end up making a vortex swirl in the vial if you stop, you can see the swirling vortex.

    I tried doing a "swirling motion" with my hand, kinda tilting back/forth, round/round, a bit of a centrifuge action. Didn't work at all, least I couldn't make it happen, too much centripetal force, it just kept the water at the bottom of the vial, stuck to the end, no spinning of the water in a vortex. Zero vortex action.

    That's what I tried anyway, and those were my results.
    Do elaborate as to a better technique, I'm always anxious to learn.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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