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Thread: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

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    Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    I picked a Pool Builder based upon references, BBB rating, seeing his work, etc.... and put down a deposit. His base bid was competitive, but one of the higher ones. Now we are working on options and I can't seem to get him to answer my questions or give me the details on Model #, etc.. that I am buying. I'm all for a fair profit, but don't want to be taken, either. Please see his email below. I'm debating whether I should continue to push on pricing of the options or not and getting the details. I worry when things are not in writing, but also don't want to tick him off and then he takes shortcuts on the quality of pool build itself. Thoughts? I suppose he'll just mark it up in the plumber bill or somewhere else.........

    Email response from PB

    Our pricing covers all material , other materials needed to make these options work, labor to install, program ,taxes and freight. I will allow $600 each on the Intellibrite LED lights. We pay more than your pricing quoted from your online research from our local distributer. Easytouch system does include wireless remote.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Jennifer
    To:Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 10:23 AM
    Subject: Re: Pool Site Plan


    Wonderful. If you start Thursday, when do you expect to have it done by?

    The contact looks fine except a few things that I want to make sure on. You don't mention specific makes/models, etc.....so I get nervous wanting to make sure we are on same page. I have included my updated specs document as well.

    1) I am not following the lights. I get two 300W clear lights in the base price that will be installed on the house side facing away. What is the extra 500W clear for $700?? Where is this going? I am upgrading those two 300W lights to the Intellibrites, 5 color changing LED ~$600 each (http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 601002.htm). The 300W Clear lights appear to run between $150-$220, so am I being credited for the base lights? I can't figure how this is going to work.

    2) Just want to make sure both the diving board and base are Tan Upgrade. http://www.interfab.com/Images-(1)/dbtan.aspx

    3) Just want to make sure the liner has no border. The whole thing is the Gold Pebble Bottom.

    4) Laminars ----- Please send me a link for me to understand the $1700 each? Are we talking the same thing? This is the Pentair Laminar I'm talking about with the Tan Lid for $667/each: http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 80001T.htm

    5) For the Pentair Easy Touch - is this what it is for---the 8 function, 40,000 gallons, with SWG? http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 520545.htm

    If so, does the $2,750 including a remote? http://www.poolsupplyworld.com/poolsupp ... 520547.htm

    Do we need a remote since the control panel of the Easytouch is so close to the pool?


    In addition to the above questions, I just want to make sure if there are any other charges that I should be expecting that are not in the contract and if so, estimated amounts. I have a budget and don't want to be surprised later. Thanks.

    Jennifer

    Contract
    Pool size: 20ft. x 46ft. 3ft. –8ft. Depth Shape: “Rectangle”

    Pool construction type: Concrete Pool Vinyl Liner Pool

    Concrete pool:
    Surface to be Plastered / or / Pained
    Waterline tile
    Coping: Poured concrete______ / Brick_____ / Stone_____ / Precast _____

    Vinyl liner pool: Wall system
    Concrete
    Galvanized steel X Rino coat option______
    Sentry powder coated galvanized steel
    Sentry stainless steel
    Pacific Delux Polymer

    Liner Type _____________ mil thickness 20 mil

    Coping: Aluminum / Color Liner receiver only X

    Steps: Poured concrete Steel liner covered X Pacific X

    Pool Equipment
    Filter: 30” Sand / Circulating pump 1.5 HP
    Heater: 400,000 BTU’s Natural gas Propane X
    Sanitizing system: In line chlorinator X
    2” Schedule 40 PVC Skimmers: 2 / Returns: 4 / Bottom drain 2
    Pool lighting: 300w clear (2) X 1 Handrail & 1 ladder: Stainless steel X
    Swimming pool cover: Mesh winter cover 5x5 strapping – Color:
    Concrete deck: Regular color & finish -0- sq. ft.
    Maintenance equipment: Vacuum head, hose, leaf net, brush, pool pole and test kit ¬¬¬ X


    Base Price $46,000.00

    Optional Equipment & Features

    Pool Equipment
    Filter:
    Variable speed pump: $800.00
    Heat pump:
    Solar heat: _______________________________
    Auto cleaner: Dolphin M4 $1,100.00
    Other: Automated controllers:
    1: Pentair Easytouch $2,750.00 with Salt Gen.
    2:

    Water features:
    Custom: ______________________________
    Laminar: $1,700.00 each x 3 = $5,100.00
    Pentair Water Jet:

    Sanitizing system:
    Frog mineral system:
    Delta UV system:
    Liners:
    Mil thickness: 28 mil - $500.00

    Automatic pool water fill system:
    1:

    Lighting:

    Extra pool light 500W clear: $700.00
    Colored:
    LED: $700.00 x 2 = $1,400.00
    Fiber optic perimeter:
    Fiber optic in pool: _________________________
    Depth marker tiles:

    Fun Options:
    Volleyball set: $600.00 Coppervien
    Basketball set: $850.00 Coppervein
    Other: ________________________________
    2: ____________________________________

    Boards & Slides:
    Diving board: Tan $1,400.00
    Slide:

    Coping:
    Stamped concrete:
    Other:

    Colored goods:
    Ladder: $150.00 Coppervein
    Handrail: $150.00 Coppervien
    Skimmer, return, maindrain:
    Other: ___________________________________

    Concrete decking:
    Stamped concrete: _______________________
    Other:
    Auto-Cover:
    Hydraulic
    Cover color
    Lid choice


    Options Total $ _$15,500.00___________
    Custom steps, benches & sun shelves:
    1:
    2:
    Color step: ______________________________
    My build spec: Omaha, NE: 20X46, Galvanized Steel Walls, Tan (Sandstone) Vinyl 20 mil Liner, SWG/Intellicholr, 2 Intellibrites Color Lights, 3 Laminars, Intelliflo Variable Speed Pump, Sand 30" Filter, Boulder Springs Diving Board, Pentair Easytouch, Autofill, Heater 400,000 BTU propane, Coverlogix 9000M Safety Cover, All Color rails/accessories (Coppervein from inter-fab).

  2. Back To Top    #2
    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Emails and letters don't allow for two way clarification - but you need proof just in case...

    For 61K you have a right to be sure up front that you are going to get what you want. But I wouldn't nickle and dime however tempting it may be. If you are happy with the price then work on the questions that aren't about $ - arrange a sit down or a phone call and tell him that you are just anxious to avoid miscommunication that would be costly to the both of you later.

    Go over each item you want to be clear on and get the answer. Ask him to amend the contract to stipulate to the clarifications or send over a rider or other written documentation for your records.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

  3. Back To Top    #3

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    I agree.

    It's great to be an informed consumer but at some point negotiating price points might tempt the builder in cutting corners somewhere (hidden) else.
    The builder shouldn't have any problem putting the items in writing. If not, he'll certainly ask for $$$$ with changes.
    Pool is DONE!
    Pentair Intelliflo VS3050
    Pentair Easy Touch 8 + actuators + swg
    Pentair IntelliPH
    Pentair 400btu HD heater
    3- Jandy WaterColor LED's
    Hayward C5030 525sqft cartridge filter
    Waterway spa blower

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Having dealt with a number of contractors in various types of work, I can just say - be careful with the online pricing things, the "you say the XXXX is $500 extra, but I can get it for $450 on line. "

    Just as you may want to go with a PB that is not the lowest price because if the quiality and reputation, many contractors have relationships with certain suppliers. They know that if something arrives damaged or is missing they can get parts without a hassle, they not things are shipped on time, they know the tech support is good, heck they may just have good credit terms with them.

    However, I agree with you that specific brands and model numbers should be specified in the contract.


    If there is a vast difference in price between something he is supplying, and the price you can get it, by all means question it. but if it is nominal (and keep in mind, some items may require more labor, extra shipping, greater carrying costs, etc) then me, I would let it go.

    -dave
    27' Round ABG (17,000 gal) - +/- 11 hours of full sun per day
    Hard plumbed Hayward Perflex EC-40 DE filter w/ 1 HP pump (Got a new one June 2015)
    Filered 4 hours per day (on a timer)
    Pentair Aqualuminator - now working - and now dead once again, this time for good.
    Zodiac Wahoo

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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Jennifer, you may wish to go in and edit your post so that you are not publicly revealing specific names and quote details (including yours). This bulletin board is heavily indexed in google, and once indexed, never goes away. Most businesses do not like having their correspondence quoted publicly, and should you ever at some later date post something in a moment of frustration during the process, there would then be a possible path for libel and other unforeseen consequences. Companies also use "reputation management" companies to aggregate references to their businesses online.

    So in a day or two, if "pool builder" had one, and a reputation management company were to do an online check, it will find this thread. Just a heads up.
    Cheers,
    Swampwoman

    P.S. Re your actual topic, my hunch is: Pick your battles. I find that budgets tend to start bloating when there's a PITA factor involved. You can go a long way on goodwill and mutual trust. However, you are wholly legit to ask for make, model and function specifications...Just don't make the guy try to compete with often false or lowballed online pricing for every item I'm sure you'd rather have him building not surfing!
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    @Swampwoman. Thanks for the tip! I removed all builder name/company references.
    My build spec: Omaha, NE: 20X46, Galvanized Steel Walls, Tan (Sandstone) Vinyl 20 mil Liner, SWG/Intellicholr, 2 Intellibrites Color Lights, 3 Laminars, Intelliflo Variable Speed Pump, Sand 30" Filter, Boulder Springs Diving Board, Pentair Easytouch, Autofill, Heater 400,000 BTU propane, Coverlogix 9000M Safety Cover, All Color rails/accessories (Coppervein from inter-fab).

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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    You're welcome. I suspect you beat the google bots
    In ground extended Grecian, 22,000 gal, Hayward 220t sand filter, vinyl liner, dolphin m4 supreme.
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!
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    GET A TEST KIT Chlorine/CYA Chart How to SLAM About Metals & Stains

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderWaterVanya
    Emails and letters don't allow for two way clarification - but you need proof just in case...

    For 61K you have a right to be sure up front that you are going to get what you want. But I wouldn't nickle and dime however tempting it may be. If you are happy with the price then work on the questions that aren't about $ - arrange a sit down or a phone call and tell him that you are just anxious to avoid miscommunication that would be costly to the both of you later.

    Go over each item you want to be clear on and get the answer. Ask him to amend the contract to stipulate to the clarifications or send over a rider or other written documentation for your records.
    Yes, I would recommend a sit down meeting to go over all the details to confirm exactly what you are getting and for how much. In my opinion the primary purpose is not to haggle over whether a light really costs $600 or $700 (just as an example) but to give you a comfort level with what you are buying.

    If my prospective PB would not do that, I would not sign a contract.
    20K gal, inground with attached spa, pebblefina plaster (bella blue), flagstone coping, moss rock waterfall, Sundek - Indian wheat, (2) Jandy PHPM2.0 (filter pump and waterfall), Jandy DEV60 DE filter, Polaris 280 pool cleaner, Polaris Halcyon PB4-60Q booster pump, Polaris 1.5 HP Air Blower, (2) Jandy WaterColors LED lights, Jandy LXI400P Heater, Jandy AquaPure PLC1400 SWG, Jandy AquaLink RS PureLink Controller and PDA.

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Jennifer, no you aren't being unreasonable on asking for details. But as far as comparing prices to the internet yes you are. If the builder is a "professional" he is trying to make a living, while performing a service for you. At the same time he is trying to protect his business. In Missouri where I conduct business I am liable for injury in any pool I build or repair for 17 years after said date. I carry a $1 million dollar liabilty policy for this. It is not cheap. Many times customers can purchase a given item off the internet for less than I can purchase it from distribution. I can get items purchased through distribution repaired or replaced if needed due to the working relationship with my suppliers. What will the internet supplier do for you if there is a situation with your purchase. Schedule a time to sit down with the builder face to face. If you must purchase it off the internet ask the builder if he will install it and what will he charge to do so. Get things resolved before moving forward. It will be easier than trying to talk with lawyers. Remember you catch more flies with honey.
    Over 30 years in the pool business
    We build vinyl, fiberglass, stainless steel pools
    Certified in Hydraulics

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Thanks everyone for the feedback! I did originally sit down with the builder and talked through these options and what was best, it's just when I got the updated contract, I was unsure. I am going to go back and at least ask for the Make, Model, Color, etc...of each of the options. I'm not going to haggle on price anymore. I would never haggle on $100 difference between contract and internet. What caused me concern is the major price difference such as a Pentair Laminar was $667 on internet, but he had it as $1700 each?? Thus for 3, $5100 is alot when I was expecting something closer to $3000 total including taxes, install, etc..... Thanks again everyone!!!!
    My build spec: Omaha, NE: 20X46, Galvanized Steel Walls, Tan (Sandstone) Vinyl 20 mil Liner, SWG/Intellicholr, 2 Intellibrites Color Lights, 3 Laminars, Intelliflo Variable Speed Pump, Sand 30" Filter, Boulder Springs Diving Board, Pentair Easytouch, Autofill, Heater 400,000 BTU propane, Coverlogix 9000M Safety Cover, All Color rails/accessories (Coppervein from inter-fab).

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Quote Originally Posted by JenniferNE
    Thanks everyone for the feedback! I did originally sit down with the builder and talked through these options and what was best, it's just when I got the updated contract, I was unsure. I am going to go back and at least ask for the Make, Model, Color, etc...of each of the options. I'm not going to haggle on price anymore. I would never haggle on $100 difference between contract and internet. What caused me concern is the major price difference such as a Pentair Laminar was $667 on internet, but he had it as $1700 each?? Thus for 3, $5100 is alot when I was expecting something closer to $3000 total including taxes, install, etc..... Thanks again everyone!!!!

    Maybe I am reading this wrong, but my understanding is that you had speced out something in your original bid. You then asked him how much ti UPGRADE to the Pentair Laminar (I assume you had some sort of other fountain selected in the original contract). He said the cost to UPGRADE was $1,700 each. That does seem excessive, as the labor would have been included in the original contract.

    However, if these are NEW features being added, remember that in addition to buying them, he also has to install them, wire them, plumb them, program them, and buy them ahead of time (laying out his own money). I don't know about $1,700 each, when you can get them unit for $667, but as you said $1,000 each installed would not seem unreasonable

    -dave
    27' Round ABG (17,000 gal) - +/- 11 hours of full sun per day
    Hard plumbed Hayward Perflex EC-40 DE filter w/ 1 HP pump (Got a new one June 2015)
    Filered 4 hours per day (on a timer)
    Pentair Aqualuminator - now working - and now dead once again, this time for good.
    Zodiac Wahoo

  12. Back To Top    #12

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    I see that when you built this pool a couple years ago you were going to get a gold pebble liner. Do you have any pictures by any chance? Are you happy with the liner? I am thinking of putting it in my pool and its hard to find pictures. Thanks!
    22x34x40 lagoon vinyl IG pool, 30,000 gal (I think), 8 ft deep with vinyl over step, led light, 2 drains, 3 returns, 2 skimmers, 1 1/2 pentair super flow pump, Polaris w/booster, pentair salt system, 1500 sq ft of deck.

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    definitely get model numbers. Don't let them write in something, like "fountain". Make the things that you sign as detailed as possible.
    10,500 gal IG, Topaz Pebble, auto-level
    Hayward DE filter, 2HP Ecostar VSP, ProLogic PS-4, GVA actuators
    Cal Pools Wave Force Plus (wall return jets plus 2 floor pop-ups), Venturi Skimmer
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  14. Back To Top    #14
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    Please keep in mind that Jennifer has not logged into the forum since January 2013 ..........
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: Am I being unreasonable asking for all the details?

    argh.
    10,500 gal IG, Topaz Pebble, auto-level
    Hayward DE filter, 2HP Ecostar VSP, ProLogic PS-4, GVA actuators
    Cal Pools Wave Force Plus (wall return jets plus 2 floor pop-ups), Venturi Skimmer
    Water sheer, 2 wok pots, bubbler stem on the baja step
    ColorLogic Mutlicolor LED lamp. Taylor 2006+speed stir

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