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Thread: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lower PH

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    Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lower PH

    First off here are some of the latest pool test levels (off my Taylor K-2006).

    FC=4.0
    CC=0.0
    PH=8.0
    TA=80
    CH=300
    CYA=70
    Salt=4200

    The Salt was measured using the Taylor K-1766 kit.

    Now the water is crystal clear and no issues with the exception that I have to keep adding say about 5oz of Muriatic Acid (31.45%) say every 2days (when I test the levels) to get it to sit right around 7.6 to 7.8 level. I show right around maybe 8.0 or maybe 7.9 ish on the PH scale, hard to decipher at times the difference. I normally dont bother much with the Acid Demand part as many on here feel its not accurate or a waste of time. But out of curiosity I decided to try it today. On the PH color scale I would say it looked like an 8.0 (looking at the comparison by holding the tube up near the sky and it was cloudy today). So I decided let me drop one drop of Acid Demand, that took me right down to almost 6.8 level, went from purple to almost light orange in one drop. I was like wow, that was a huge change. So I know that was worthless for me. I know when I put the 5oz in (based on the poolcalculator.com and my android app) and retest it puts me right around 7.7 to 7.8 area.

    Just wondering if this is normal? Doesnt really bother me a whole lot except pouring 5oz in the measuring cup requires wearing a gas mask from the MA fumes

    Dixit

    PS, the pool/equipment details are all in my signature.
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Yes, especially since yu have a swcg and a spill over. Both of which will cause the ph to increase...
    17,000 gal, IG Gunite Diamond Brite plaster Kidneybean,w/7x11 tanning ledge& 3x5 swimout bench,244T 300lb Hayward Pro high rate sand filter(63 GPM) , Hayward 1Hp Super Pump w/3/4 hp booster pump, Polaris 280, Laars Lite 2 175k N/G Heater, Tf-100, Speed stir

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Right, forgot to mention that lately I dont run the water feature (I actually have two, one that is the overflow from the spa and that goes into the spillage basin on the other side of the spa, not spilling into the pool, and the other one is actually the main water feature as my pool return if I use it that way, it just comes from below the spa from the side of the rocks) lately since that causes the PH to keep going up due to aeration. So I mainly run my Caretaker 99 floor cleaner as the main return now (dont have actually any dedicated pool returns).

    So Its normal to just keep having to add about 5-7oz every few days and keep the PH in line right?

    Dixit
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Yes it is, especially on a swg equipped pool, with TA at 80. You should lower PH to 7.2 and eventually your acid demand will drop when TA comes down to about the 60 area.

    How old is the pool?
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Dixit,

    Have you tried adding borates to your pool?
    It will help to buffer the pH, in some pools it's very little difference and yet in other pools it can make all the difference in the world. You won't know until you do it, but at the very minimum, it has the fantastic effect of making the water sparkle like glass as well as other benefits.

    What happens in your pool if you don't add M.A.?
    Does the pH just keep going up, or does it stop at 8.0 and stay there?

    Also, what is your chlorinating source, aside from the SWG, or do you just rely solely on that?

    I'm not an expert in the area, so I don't know if it'll monkey with it for sure or not, but have you used any metal sequestrants or any other sorts of magic soup in the past, or before finding this forum and following the BBB method?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Quote Originally Posted by dmanb2b
    Yes it is, especially on a swg equipped pool, with TA at 80. You should lower PH to 7.2 and eventually your acid demand will drop when TA comes down to about the 60 area.

    How old is the pool?
    Id like to say Im in the 70-75 range on the TA. When using the speedstir at the 7th drop the color changes but doesnt turn blue, turns nice and blue on the 8th drop. I know they say between 60-80, so I thought being at 70ish would be good. I actually havent added any Baking Soda ever since I drained and refilled (coverted to SWG 2mo ago, had to drain cause the CYA from previous owner was over 350, yes 350, I did a 1 to 4 dilution and still got a reading between 80-90.) Pool is about 6yrs old according to previous owner, I believe they had it built and done in late 2005 early 2006 time frame.

    Quote Originally Posted by y_not
    Have you tried adding borates to your pool?
    It will help to buffer the pH, in some pools it's very little difference and yet in other pools it can make all the difference in the world. You won't know until you do it, but at the very minimum, it has the fantastic effect of making the water sparkle like glass as well as other benefits.

    What happens in your pool if you don't add M.A.?
    Does the pH just keep going up, or does it stop at 8.0 and stay there?

    Also, what is your chlorinating source, aside from the SWG, or do you just rely solely on that?

    I'm not an expert in the area, so I don't know if it'll monkey with it for sure or not, but have you used any metal sequestrants or any other sorts of magic soup in the past, or before finding this forum and following the BBB method?
    I have tried adding Borates yet, I keep seeing about the BBB method. I read into it in good detail in the Pool School. Havent looked into what the 20 Mule is going to cost, but looked like its going to be 200-400 based on all the MA I will also have to add. I may look into it if I can find a good source to buy the good amount of Borax I will need.

    I havent not add the MA, I try to keep it inline in fear that if I dont it will get so out of wack that it will require more work to fix it. And also my kids keep wanting to go in there, so want to keep it inline and safe for them. My chlorinating source is only my Salt Water Chlorine Generator cell. It keeps the FC in the 4-5.0 range. I have about Nine 184zoz of 6% Chlorox sitting on standby incase I need to shock it or any other reason.

    As far as any other metal sequestrants or any other sorts of magic soup, nope. As metioned earlier, I just 2mo ago almost drained the pool down to about 90-95% and then refilled. Previous owner clearly didnt check the levels (or at least the CYA). He was Chlorine Tablet pucks happy, Had a huge bucket of them. Tested the CYA when I got the pool it was 300-350, had to dilute the water 4:1 on the sample to get that reading. So had to do a massive drain/refill, then decided I dont want to deal with Chlorine pucks, so bought the Jandy Aquapure Ei and put that in as my main Chlorine source. Been doing awesome for past 1mo keeping the FC at 4-5.0 even in this at times 90-100F Atlanta sun/heat.

    Dixit
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    No need to add baking soda. Baking soda will only raise your TA and make PH rise faster. Droping PH to 7.2 will lower you TA some and it will eventually drift back up. PH of 7.8+ puts your pool at risk of calcium scaling and quite frankly is not that pleasant on the eyes.

    Believe it our not, once MA is added to you pool, it only adds salt as a byproduct. I have high TA fill water 300+ and needed 8+ gals of MA on my initial fill to lower TA over a 3 day period.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixit

    I have tried adding Borates yet, I keep seeing about the BBB method. I read into it in good detail in the Pool School. Havent looked into what the 20 Mule is going to cost, but looked like its going to be 200-400 based on all the MA I will also have to add. I may look into it if I can find a good source to buy the good amount of Borax I will need.
    Did you mean $200 to $400 to do borates? That seems a bit high. Walmart here in CA has 76 oz. borax for $3.38 a box and if the Pool Calculator is right you would need 11 boxes and 3 gal of MA to get to 50 ppm borates. Probably looking a $60-ish.

    Just to let you know we have very similar pool specs (no water feature though) and I put in about quart of 14.25% a week. My TA has been steadily dropping. Now at 80 as well.
    15'x30' IG - Roman-style - 14K - Pebble Fina Classico
    Filter: Jandy CL460 Pump: Jandy Stealth SHPF1.5 SWG: Jandy AquaPure 1400 Cleaner: Jandy RayVac Test Kit: TF-100 w/SpeedStir

    Chlorine/CYA Chart----Extended Test Kit Directions----SLAM

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    I added borates and still add 1/2 gallon of MA every 7 to 10 days.
    35K IG Vinyl 20 x 40 self built pool, Hayward Pro Series High-Rate Sand Filter 31" 98gal/min, Hayward TriStar 1.85hp, Hayward 400btu heater, BBB method w/Hypo, Jazz light w/matching fiber optic rope lighting around coping w/syncronized color wheels. Concrete Paver deck.

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Quote Originally Posted by UN1017
    Did you mean $200 to $400 to do borates? That seems a bit high. Walmart here in CA has 76 oz. borax for $3.38 a box and if the Pool Calculator is right you would need 11 boxes and 3 gal of MA to get to 50 ppm borates. Probably looking a $60-ish.

    Just to let you know we have very similar pool specs (no water feature though) and I put in about quart of 14.25% a week. My TA has been steadily dropping. Now at 80 as well.
    Wow, 60-ish is not bad. I was basing my figures initially on a quick search on Amazon for the 76oz 20 Mule box which is almost $14 a box. Didnt think there would be that big of a price difference on that box from Amazon to Walmart. Good to know. I do remember trying to search Walmart for price but their website/search is probably the worst one designed to date for any store.

    Might be headed off to Walmart and Home Depot (to get more MA as well) to try this Borates out. Another test kit to order probably as well. My wife the other day asked me how many of these blue (Taylor, already got the 1766 Salt kit, 2006 main test kit, and the 1000 OTO chlorine kit) test kits do we need? And one day from her office (she works from home) she saw me testing the water with the "SpeedStir" and asks me Are you running a trying to run Chemistry class or running a pool? I said "Both" Hhaahah

    Dixit
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Quote Originally Posted by "Dixit

    My wife the other day asked me how many of these blue (Taylor, already got the 1766 Salt kit, 2006 main test kit, and the 1000 OTO chlorine kit) test kits do we need? And one day from her office (she works from home) she saw me testing the water with the "SpeedStir" and asks me Are you running a trying to run Chemistry class or running a pool? I said "Both" Hhaahah

    Dixit
    Welcome to the darkside and the TFP mad scientists . Before jumping to Borates, let's see if dropping TA some will help. Borates will slow PH rise (buffer), but it will not reduce the amount of acid needed and makes lowering TA more difficult.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    So what we think the TA needs to be around? 60ppm? Im probably 70 to 75ish. Basically int he 60-80ppm range.

    Dixit
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Dropping to 60 should help. If not you can go as low as 50 if you also decide to go the Borates route. Anything below 50 is going to be aggressive.

    Now that I am re-reading your OP, it appears you are not adding enough acid to adust PH. If your PH is currently 7.8-8.0, in a 14k gal pool it would take approx 3 cups to drop PH to 7.2-7.4, not 5oz. No wonder you are adding MA too often, you are not adding enough to make much of a difference.

    Also, saw a pic of the pool, very nice. How old is the pool? Newer plater pools experience PH rise until they are fully cured...sometimes up to 2 years from install.
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    Well I try to stay in the 7.5 to 7.8 suggested range from TFP recommendations. I notice if Im on the higher side of that range (like 7.8) then the CSI is more balanced. IF I get to say 7.5 side, the CSI gets more on the negative side (lower than -0.5). Im not analyzing that CSI that hardcore but thought if stay at 7.8 it puts me more in the -0.5 to +0.5 CSI range. So to go from about 8.0ish on the PH to about 7.8, it only takes about 5oz on that size pool. The spa I add about barely 1oz and Im 8.0 to probably 7.5 area. I was just trying to stay more in the 7.5 to 7.8 range as the poolcalculator.com suggests.

    We just bought the house, the previous owner had the pool installed in the 2005-2006 time frame. Dont believe it has been replastered since then. So any PH rise shouldve been gone by now from the new plaster.

    I will dump some MA to get me in the 7.0 range and then aerate the water to get the TA down to 60 side. That should be easy by just running the water feature as the main return instead of the Caretaker. The Spa wont be a problem either as its spillover into the spillage basin is a good 3ft drop and will aerate the water nicely (well it does that every day when I run it for 30mins).

    Dixit
    Picture of Pool
    14,000 Gallon Freeform Plaster based pool. 1,000 Gallon Spa with Spillage Basin. Jandy Aquapure Ei Salt Water Chlorine Generator. Jandy CL580 Cartridge Filter. Sta-Rite P6E6G-208L Filter Pump. Jandy JHP2.0 Spillage Pump. Jandy LX400 Heater. Caretaker 99 Floor cleaner. Polaris Leaf-B-Gone. iAqualink.

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    dmanb2b's Avatar
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    Re: Is it normal to keep having to add Muriatic Acid to lowe

    I would suggest only going down to 7.2 on PH...you should see it drift up to the 7.6 area, which will put your csi right around -0.5
    24'x52" AGP (13,500 Gallons), Intex SWG, (2)Solar Bear 4x20 panels, Hayward S220T Filter, 1/2hp Pentair Superflo

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