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Thread: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

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    CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    I have been having some major issues with my salt cell clogging up with calcium. I've taken water to Leslie's pool supply for testing and they always show 250-300ppm; latest was 270. It didn't add up so I deided to take matters in to my own hands,and do my own testing. I bought a TF100 test kit and it's showing 800ppm for CH!
    The other day I was trying to figure out why the PC2000 in floor cleaner wasnt working and it actually seems like one of the 2" pipes is blocked with calcium!
    I read that the only way to get CH downs to replace water, but the pool store says my Venetian glass pool can only be emptied when temp's are below 70F. Here in Phoenix, that means waiting to Dec or Jan. Are there other options to reduce calcium? Any way to stop it blogging my whole system up?
    Any ideas how to unclog a pipe chocked up with calcium?
    12,000gal Venetian glass tile. 4 Pentair Whisperflow (2x1HP, 2x1.5Hp), 1xPentair Waterfall pump (1HP), Triton II sand filter, MiniMax NT 400 heater, PC2000 in floor cleaner, Resilience A5 SWG, pHtek automated acid system, Paramount Clear O3 Ozne Generator.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    The other option besides replacing water is a reverse osmosis treatment. And Phoenix happens to be one of the few places with a few companies that do it. Costs $3-400.

    Or leaving the CH as is and maintaining a closer eye on your pH and TA levels.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Can you post a full set of test results? Specifically TA and PH

    While CH 800ppm is certainly very high it is manageable and most likely the problem involves high TA and PH as well.

    You can try lowering your TA to the 50/60 range and adding 50ppm Borates to your pool. This will lower your CSI quite significantly - even with high calcium levels.

    It's doubtful that a 2" pipe would calcify shut before you noticed SIGNIFICANT problems
    16K Gal Plaster | Compupool SWG | Intelliflow VF | TF-100

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Thanks for the quick responses.
    Due to calcium build up, the SWG hasn't been performing well. I received a new cell and installed today.
    Results were:
    TC: 1ppm vs target of 2-3
    PH: 8.2 - rises rapidly. Was at target of 7.6 just 3 days ago
    Salt: 2700 - target is 3500 for my SWG. Leslie's said it was 3400. Not sure to trust them or the salt strips?
    FC: 1ppm
    CC:<0.5
    TA: 110 vs target of 70-80
    CH: 800 vs target of <300ppm
    CYA: 70 at target
    12,000gal Venetian glass tile. 4 Pentair Whisperflow (2x1HP, 2x1.5Hp), 1xPentair Waterfall pump (1HP), Triton II sand filter, MiniMax NT 400 heater, PC2000 in floor cleaner, Resilience A5 SWG, pHtek automated acid system, Paramount Clear O3 Ozne Generator.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    keeping the pH in the low 7s is going to be VERY important with the high CH.

    And you certainly need to get that FC up a bit ... May want to help the SWG with some bleach.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    You have received some good advice. Always trust your TF-100 test results over that of the pool store.

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Thanks again for the advice. If I add Borates, I will plan to keep them in the pool until a refil this winter.
    How much of what do I add to get a 12000gal pool up to 50ppm for Borates?
    once I refil, is there any reason to keep Borates in the pool.
    The pH has been an issue for a while. I can't always get to the pool as I travel a lot. I'm planning to add a pH-tek acid delivery system, or a Poolsmith CO2 system to help there. Currently leaning towards CO2.

    As for the clog in the pipe, it seems to be restricted to just of the 6valve outlets on the cleaner - very strange.
    12,000gal Venetian glass tile. 4 Pentair Whisperflow (2x1HP, 2x1.5Hp), 1xPentair Waterfall pump (1HP), Triton II sand filter, MiniMax NT 400 heater, PC2000 in floor cleaner, Resilience A5 SWG, pHtek automated acid system, Paramount Clear O3 Ozne Generator.

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Here are the instructions for adding borates

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/so-yo...how-t4921.html

    You should definitely start stocking up on some muriatic acid!! You will need it for getting the TA down and also if you use Borax to add the borates.
    20k gal, IG Vinyl, IntelliFlo VF Pump, 60 GPM sand filter, Jandy Aquapure Ei 35, 2 skimmers, one main drain, two returns, Dolphin Diagnostic cleaning robot, Taylor K-2006 test kit

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    The easiest way to add borates is with boric acid from somewhere like Dudadeisel -BUT if you're just going to drain the pool this winter I'm not sure I would bother.

    A PH of 8.2 is 90% of your problem. As mentioned if your get the PH down to 7 it will help a lot.

    Obviously it's going to rise pretty quickly - but if your lower it back down every time it gets to 7.5 or so that will help.

    Your floor cleaners - do they have nozzles with thin openings? Your SWG has most likely been sending largeish flakes of calcium into the returns - so anything with a nozzle would clog up.
    16K Gal Plaster | Compupool SWG | Intelliflow VF | TF-100

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Bought 48lb of Borax and the acid. Trying to get TA and pH down - adding acid and aerating. Once TA, pH and TC are good, I'll add the Borax and Acid. Then I plan on hooking up TE CO2 to keep pH in check. I figure if I can keep levels good for rest of this, I should bet set when it come time to drain and refill.
    12,000gal Venetian glass tile. 4 Pentair Whisperflow (2x1HP, 2x1.5Hp), 1xPentair Waterfall pump (1HP), Triton II sand filter, MiniMax NT 400 heater, PC2000 in floor cleaner, Resilience A5 SWG, pHtek automated acid system, Paramount Clear O3 Ozne Generator.

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    Just one other quick question: Leslie's have me using "Pool Perfect+Phos Free" and "Scale Free". I'm not convinced either are doing much except putting a big hole in my wallet. Should I stop with these or do they have some value?
    I went to Lelie's to get a borate test kit. Not only did they not have one, but the guy didn't even know what Borate is!
    12,000gal Venetian glass tile. 4 Pentair Whisperflow (2x1HP, 2x1.5Hp), 1xPentair Waterfall pump (1HP), Triton II sand filter, MiniMax NT 400 heater, PC2000 in floor cleaner, Resilience A5 SWG, pHtek automated acid system, Paramount Clear O3 Ozne Generator.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    save your money.

    Keep your levels in range and you do not need their potions

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    I'm with jbliz on this one, save your money and maintain a lower ph (and TA) to control your calcium scaling issue.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    but the guy didn't even know what Borate is!
    And yet there are several products at LPS that are sodium tetraborate (Borax in other words.) Had you mentioned one of these products I'm sure they would have sold them to you - even though they dont know what they are.

    Similarly they have no idea when to properly use Pool Perfect or Phosfree - but were happy to sell them.

    A scale inhibitor might have some use in your situation - but lowering your TA and adding borates is a much more robust solution - you know what to test for, how to manage it, etc.
    16K Gal Plaster | Compupool SWG | Intelliflow VF | TF-100

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    If you know how much water is in the pool, you can calculate exactly how much borax to add for 50 ppm. It's not critical anyway. Anywhere between 40 and 80 ppm will make the pH more stable and the chemistry easier to manage. Get your TA down, keep the pH 7-7.6 and use the Pool Calculator to keep a very close watch on the CSI, and your problems will go away.

    I live in Tucson where we also have very high CH levels, and had many of the same problems before I found TFP site. Now I've been able to manage CH levels as high as 1,000 with no scaling. I don't ever even need to clean my SWG since I now take acre of the CSI level.
    chiefwej
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    16x36 rectangular (19k) Pebble Tec play pool/spa, Pentair Intelliflo VS 011018, Super II 2hp (spa), Aqua Rite T-15 SWG, Pro Grid 60 DE, Hayward H400 & Heliocol Solar heating, A&A infloor system, fill water w/high CH and TA, 50 ppm borates,TF-100 test kit

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    I, too, have had problems with testing from Leslie's. Have learned that neither Leslie's or B&L test their reagents against a standard. They don't seem to follow the kit instructions either. They do so many all day long, I think they're sloppy. So, chances are none of us is getting a good reading. They really should go to a computerized system. Calibrating the computer a few times a day would take less time than their inaccurate test kit testing. I bought a commercial kit and had it tested against standards because I was tired of dealing with the different readings from different places. How can you balance your pool if the numbers are wrong? Not even sure I trust my own testing. Does anyone know of a place in the Phoenix area you can take your pool water for a professional computer test--even if they charge for it?

    My pool--quartz composite similar to ultrapoz-- is only 3 months old and already has CH of 750--according to the Expert the pool builder sent out. Leslie's had my last reading at 430. Because the pool is new, and the 400+ CH reading, I was already trying (acid almost every day) to keep my ph down to 7.3/7.4 (tends to drift up .1 - .2 overnight) and TA at 80-90 (cya is 80). But the Expert said the TA was too low because of the high cya, and I should keep it at 100-110. But the CYA goes up and down, depending on backwashing, what stage the tab in the floater is in. And how can a new pool have a CH of 750 already? They told me it was normal, but I was told I'd never have to drain my pool because I have a sand filter--large Pentair. Pool is about 13500, UV system, bioguard silk for back up sanitation, no salt, BArracuda G3 for cleaning. Now I've been told to drain the pool in Feb. or March because the CH can't go higher than 1000. Leslie's had my TDS at 2300 or so, with 1400 salt and CH of 430. The expert has me at 1800 TDS, salt at 1400. Do those numbers even work with a 750 CH?? (FYI: Per expert testing, Tap CH is 170; TDS 800; TA 110)

    Any advice? Is this pool draining bull? The water is crystal clear, feels great, equipment function well without any build-up that I can see. There's strong flow from the returns, even on the lower speed. Since the first few weeks we had the pool filled, there has been a white calcium build-up at the water line and on the tile grout that we've had to scrub off, but we haven't even had any white line at the water line for over a month. I don't want to screw up the warranty --or my interior-- but it doesn't seem normal that I'd have to drain a brand new pool. Maybe with old pools and pools with cartridge filters, but a new pool with a sand filter. Something is just not right.

    Thanks for any advice you can give me. I'm at the end of my rope.

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    Re: CH: Leslie's 270 ppm. TF100 800ppm. What now?

    I've had similar issue with CH readings. If you take your water to a few different Leslie's stores you may get different readings. The guy whose readings were low would stop testing once he saw some particles (metals?) and his results were around 400 if I remember correctly. My TF100 results were over 700.

    At that time (2010) I've been shocking pool with calcium based shock. I stopped shocking and my CH came down and now it's around 250. I live in northeast, so some water gets drained (just below skimmers), some gets added with rain, but my pool is about 23k and I seriously doubt half of the water has been replaced.

    not sure if applies to CH test, but you may want to wait after each drop to make sure it's diluted.
    Bill
    18'X4' 7600 Gal AG
    3/4 HP Pentair Pump
    Hayward S166T 100 lb sand filter

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