Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up top.

[y_not]

1st off, no recommended test kit. Sorry! =\
>>EDIT: I now have the TF-100 kit, see today 09/05 in this thread for results.

My OTO/pH cheapo block /w fresh re-agents, kept indoors and never left in sun, tested in bright daylight, back to the sun, also rinsed each time, caps & vials, shows the following.
Test water pulled from elbow length down, about a foot-ish and taken immediately, shaking the reagents 1st and never cross contaminating.

As of late afternoon, so some CL loss.
FC: 4ppm
**Dose to 7ppm @ Night
TC: No change using JasonLion's tips, used to see some CCs, but not now.
pH: 7.6
**Was at 7.8, lowered with M.A. a few times, seems to hold now.
CYA: 30
**Haven't tested, but added about 2 weeks ago, starting /w a fresh fill from city water.

Before I started the BBB method, I was just using CL tabs, no stabilizer or Tri-Di(Chlor) in them. And I had shocked it a few times /w Cal-Hypo powder, mixed in a jug, then poured all around pool.

Water was cloudy, murky, you could see bottom, but very little detail.
After switching to CL & adding CYA, I can now see the bottom beautifully, nice and crystaly, not perfect, but dang awesome! It's only 3.5ft. deep though.
The top of the water is highly reflective, I wouldn't quite say it's glass, but awfully close.
When I look down at the ladder, standing right next to it, the blue rubbery feet look like a somewhat faded blue and the latter isn't crisp in white color/defined edges. This visual test has improved many fold since I started.

Here's the big issue, I get in, open my bare eyes under water and it's about like being in a pond, you can't even see the bottom, well you can tell there's a bottom, but no detail, not unless you get right down on it, better, but even then the detail is still poor. Dive toys are very dull and murky/milky looking. It just looks awful, doesn't look clean. But the water feels very nice, good on my somewhat sensitive skin, didn't used to be.

Here's what I suspect, but I don't have the kit to test for it, I art poor ATM.
Our water here is kinda hard, sprinkler water leaves white dots all over your car and if left uncleaned, parking near sprinklers overnight, after many weeks, it just coats your car in a sheet of white stuff.
You have to pressure wash it off, or use ammonia + borax for abrasive on the glass to get it off.
It doesn't leave a ring in your water glass though, after weeks it may.
So it's not really bad, maybe moderate to moderately mild.
No red stuff or anything, our city water comes out of underground aquifers buried deep in volcanic lava beds/tubes.

So I'm assuming this is calcium, since it's white?
Is this why my water is so unclear, if so, what can I do about it?

Thanks.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Only one way to find out your CH ... test for it. If it is high, you either have to replace with lower CH water, do reverse osmosis, or maintain low pH to avoid scaling.

This is not likely your problem.

You have not followed the shock process correctly yet ... due to a lack of proper testing. Sorry to be blunt, but you have been around here long enough to know you need a test kit.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Yeah I know how to do the shock process and I know how to test it too. Knew all that before I even signed up. I'm a quick study. But since I don't have the kit yet... well. DOIY! I can't HAHA!
So yes, I know I have never shocked it, nor did I mean I had by stating I put cal-hypo shock in it. It's not a product, it's a process.
I just put that in for reference as to what chemicals my water has seen since the pool has been filled. So you'd know, since my question would likely bring that up at some point anyway, it's the inevitable.

I have actually thought about doing it (chlorine<algae Kamakaze run) anyway, since I can test for the high FC levels doing a dilute or using the higher color indicators posted. I can also test for TC to give me an idea of CC chloramine levels, but what prevents me from doing it is I can't do the OCLT test /w an OTO kit. I can see if it's several PPM and even maybe 1 if I get the dilution right, but not 0.5ppm at that high of a level.

But is it really algae? It's murky like, but clear to see through from the top, for the most part and it's squeaky clean everywhere, not to mention nothing is green, brown, or yellow.
Everything I have read, says that's dead algae. But I have found nothing talking about the various stages of algae and it's color development before it becomes a visible color.
Searched & searched & Googled and nuttin!

So it sounds like your gut feeling is leaning you toward it being some sort of algae, right?

Plus, my pH doesn't seem to like to stay down, doesn't yo-yo at all, it just goes down /w the M.A. then goes right back up by evening, back to where I started. It was 7.8, now 7.6, but that change is according to the new re-agent refills, which makes me uncertain. The pH doing that, leads me to believe the cause is high TA, but again.... drum roll please.... can't test for that yet.

I was hoping maybe based on the info I gave, there might be a direction I could go in, in order to begin to at least start clearing it up. With the info on my tap water and such, at the very least something to confirm my suspicions.

But I'm OK with just living with it till I can afford a kit.
Although if it is algae, that's kinda NASTY!! But then again, what's swimming in a lake? LOL
Wish it "the kit" wasn't so much, wish I could just go to one of my distributors I use in my IT business & buy it from them for pennies on the dollar. *snaps fingers*
Oh well.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

There is a chance that everything is dead ... but impossible to be sure, as you obviously understand.

It does not help that the filter you have is pretty small I think, so it may just take time to get things cleared up.

Not really sure what to tell you to speed up the clearing given the process you are using with limited information.

Have you considered the Wal-Mart HTH 6 way drop kit? Not sure how much it is but would add a few missing tests. Although that would be money you could use on a k2006, which is right around $50.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[JohnN]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

The HTH kit is $23. So about 1/2 the price of the k-2006. Here it is: http://www.walmart.com/ip/HTH-6-Way-Test-Kit/17043668

 

[Richard320]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Figure out a way to aim the return jet down so you stir that stuff up where the filter can grab it.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Although to add the FAS-DPD to that kit would be close to $30 ... and then you are at more than just getting the K2006.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

There is a chance that everything is dead ... but impossible to be sure, as you obviously understand.

Yup, for sure.

It does not help that the filter you have is pretty small I think, so it may just take time to get things cleared up.

Yeah, I know it sucks, bad, bad Intex! They're sorta the Compaq/HP of the pool world, some good parts, some bad. That's definitely on the list to be replaced /w a sand filter & likely an SWG, although more research needs to be done on that, the SWG, for my tastes, before I'm satisfied in my decision that is.

I have used Cellulose media in the cartridge, never got black, just turned a sandy brown color, from it's bleached white starting color. Pump output decreased down to nothing, so I'd brush off the bugs, rotate the cart & flip end/over end, then run a bit longer before I'd wash it all off & do it again. But I stopped after 2 treatments. The water did improve, but I didn't know if I was fighting live algae, thus a loosing battle, so I didn't want to just waste it and figured I'd save it till after a shock.

Think I should just try the shock till I see the water clear up, not being able to do the OCLT test and just calling it a day, using the clear water as an indicator, plus an extra day as insurance?

Have you considered the Wal-Mart HTH 6 way drop kit? Not sure how much it is but would add a few missing tests. Although that would be money you could use on a k2006, which is right around $50.

My thoughts exactly. Great minds think alike. :-D
I'm going for the TF-100, because it's not that much more & I'm kinda test happy. Plus I found that TFTest's CA office is selling it on Flea-Bay /w free shipping. So me's happy about this.

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Figure out a way to aim the return jet down so you stir that stuff up where the filter can grab it.

Actually been thinking about some things along those lines, for sure. Need to get to the h/w store. Good tip.

Can this filter actually trap the algae, or is that not going to happen /w out the Cellulose in there?

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

I finally got my TF-100 kit and have a full set of results.

FC - 3.5
CC - 0
pH - 7.5/7.6
TA - 150
CYA - 30
CH - 250

OCLT - 1.0ppm
This is while my tiny filter is still working to clear out the previous swimmer waste from 2 nights before, counting the night I did the OCLT, last night. So the swimmers were Mon. late afternoon & eve.

My problem is still the same, actually worse now underwater. The water up top is totally gorgeous!!
I think I can see some of the effects of whatever is making it cloudy when I dive under and swim around. The ladder looks a little washed out in the blue color of the feet and the white of the legs is a bit dingy looking, not vibrant white.
Other than that, I can see the bottom beautifully from up top and all the way to the other side of the pool.

I am working on cleaning up all of the ash & fine fine dirt from the forest fires, it all settled to the bottom, but got stirred up Monday from swimmers. I didn't want to vacuum before they got in, so I said to heck with it. But that is almost cleared up.
Note, that is likely lye if it is ash, which would raise pH, but I'm not sure if that's really what it is. It may just be dust blown in from the fires & not the ash itself.

I have added MA to bring my TA down, was 160 /w the 25ml sample, the 150 measured above was with the 10ml sample, so I'm sure it's lower than 150 now.
My pH usually sits about 7.8 and holds.

What might be causing this cloudiness?
Do I need to do a lime softening operation where I raise the pH with carbonate alkalinity, that will bond with the calcium, forming lime that will clump into lime chunks that I can vacuum to waste?

Or can I just lower the TA and will that mask the cloudiness?

 

[Richard320]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

I never noticed any pH change when we were being coated with ash from nearby forest fires.

I'm beginning to think your problem is poor circulation and filtration. intex-1000-gph-pump-vs-2500-gph-is-like-night-and-day-t8197.html

 

[PAGirl]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

You'd never believe what a difference the Intex sand filter can make. I thought my water was good, until I installed the sand filter instead of the stock cartridge. In one day it went from clear, to sparkly! They had gone on sale at the end of the season, for $129.

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Yeah, I know these Intex cartridges are TERRIBLE!!

But it actually does pull a lot of stuff out of my water since I have monkeyed with it and taken your advice Richard and pointed the return down /w a little PVC elbow I found at Slowes that fits into the return port nicely, I propped up the return hos /w a bucket too and now it really points down and no more breaking of the surface either. Just a calm, gentle vortex that pushes everything to the outside or center.
Didn't do that before.

I want to get a different filter, but I'm not so sure I'm going to go /w the Intex sand filter.
I want to get something that will allow me to upsize my pool down the road, leaning toward a cartridge filter or a Hayward AGP Matrix sand filter. I like the idea of a cartridge filter because you don't waste treated water backwashing, but at the same time I love the idea of backwashing in it's simplicity, it's soooo much easier than messing with hosing down cartridges. Ooooh the CHOICES!!!
I don't want to have to replace my Intex sand filter in a year or so when I get a HUGE agp pool, like a doughboy or something.

I recall this problem being there from the start, before the water ever had a chance to sit in there long, but I'm not sure.
I need to go dunk my head in a bucket, seriously. I'm going to fill a bucket with pool water, put something on the bottom of it, then dunk my head in and see what the clarity is. Then I'll try it with fresh tap water and see if there's a clarity difference there, or if it's the same cloudiness.

So do you think I have enough calcium in my water for it to be cloudy from that? Being in suspension.

 

[Richard320]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

So do you think I have enough calcium in my water for it to be cloudy from that? Being in suspension.

No. I have more than 3X the CH you do, and my water is crystal clear.

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

RE: Bucket test - too little water to prove anything. We've seen pools you could not see past a foot and a bucket of the water appeared crystal clear.

RE: Filter - Don't over think it. The cost of the Intex Sand filter is low enough and sized for the pump. If you do go with an AGP rated sand filter you may need to upgrade the pump and the pump you select now may not fit the needs later. Stick to the best fit for the existing pool - not what you might have some use for sometime down the road.

RE: OCLT - the problem with your result is that if you had a loss of 1ppm and you only have 3.5ppm or so - that's nearly a 30% loss! Try running the pool to shock level and rechecking - the OCLT really is more accurate at higher FC levels where a 1ppm loss is a smaller percentage of the total chlorine. I'm not saying that your result is not valid - but that given the cloudy water - you need to consider doing the shock process anyway to get rid of the cloudiness - and run an OCLT at shock levels to see if the results mirror your existing results.

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

So do you think I have enough calcium in my water for it to be cloudy from that? Being in suspension.

No. I have more than 3X the CH you do, and my water is crystal clear.

That is really good to know Richard, really good to know.
One more question Richard, is your water clear when you open your eyes underwater, IE. no white fog?
That really puts me at ease on this whole thing, as I'd surely had myself convinced that this was the case. I mean calcium is white, suspend it in a solution and surely it'll be cloudy.
And no, this wasn't some preconceived notion, or something I invented, I had actually picked it up here on the forum that it can cause problems with clarity. Heck, it even says it on the laminated card that came /w the TF test kit, under the CH testing section.

So that's good to know. Scientifically speaking, and it doesn't have to be a chemistry answer so much, or it can if someone wants, I'll certainly read it.
The question is, why would water look so pretty up top, but not be so underwater with your eyes open? Is it that my pool of approx. 3.5ft deep, isn't deep enough to show it from the top?
Thx.

RE: Bucket test - too little water to prove anything. We've seen pools you could not see past a foot and a bucket of the water appeared crystal clear.

Good point, I was wondering this and would have found it out sure enough. HAHA!
I had read posts on that, many where the water was green, etc.. and you couldn't see it in the bucket. But I figured that since I couldn't even see 6" if that in front of me, like in a fog, that I'd be able to see that if I went bobbing for imaginary apples in a bucket of pool water, then tap water.
I still might try it, just to make the family laugh at me.
I'll tell them I'm bobbing for fish.

RE: Filter - Don't over think it. The cost of the Intex Sand filter is low enough and sized for the pump. If you do go with an AGP rated sand filter you may need to upgrade the pump and the pump you select now may not fit the needs later. Stick to the best fit for the existing pool - not what you might have some use for sometime down the road.

Well I wanted to get the 2650gpm Intex, so I felt at that cost, I ought to step up to the Hayward.
Spending around $300 now, then have to turn around in a year and buy something bigger seemed silly to me.

RE: OCLT - the problem with your result is that if you had a loss of 1ppm and you only have 3.5ppm or so - that's nearly a 30% loss! Try running the pool to shock level and rechecking - the OCLT really is more accurate at higher FC levels where a 1ppm loss is a smaller percentage of the total chlorine. I'm not saying that your result is not valid - but that given the cloudy water - you need to consider doing the shock process anyway to get rid of the cloudiness - and run an OCLT at shock levels to see if the results mirror your existing results.

Hrrrrmmmmssss.... again, you have an excellent point there. And once again, I wondered to myself and searched on the forums, to see if it worked so well at lower CL levels.
BTW, it would have been around 3.5ppm when I posted, but that was an estimate, as I'm dosing to 5ppm FC at night, then during the day it drops from the sun and lowers down to 3.5/3.0 by sunset, depending on the daily conditions. I loose about 33-40% total, night to night.
So when I did the OCLT, apparently I overshot a bit, still adjusting things, it was 5.5ppm when I went to bed at about 11:30pm, then at 5:45am, it was 4.5ppm.

I'll vacuum it with my horrible venturi vac, then do a SHOCK SHOCK SHOCK!! I'll go stock up on some of the ol' "bleach'omatic".

 

[UnderWaterVanya]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

RE: Pump/Filter - check for clearance items and closeouts before you jump. Check Craigslist if you are lucky enough to be somewhere with enough sellers to make it worthwhile.

I've seen OCLT's done with low and high FC - and honestly the advice is a little bit unclear. However if you do have cloudy issues - then I think shocking as a first step is worthwhile - what have you got to lose in trying?

As for cloudy - why you don't see it from above? I'm not sure. At first I thought maybe it was because more than 3.5' was needed to get the cloudiness to show. Is it possible you just stir up the stuff? Have you tried brushing and then looking carefully to see from above if there is any evidence of cloudiness? If not then maybe lighting angles are involved.

I forget - do you use scum bags? You may need these to help clear the cloudiness with that filter system.

 

[Richard320]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

[quote="y_not":23mdfah8]
So do you think I have enough calcium in my water for it to be cloudy from that? Being in suspension.

No. I have more than 3X the CH you do, and my water is crystal clear.

That is really good to know Richard, really good to know.
One more question Richard, is your water clear when you open your eyes underwater, IE. no white fog?
That really puts me at ease on this whole thing, as I'd surely had myself convinced that this was the case. I mean calcium is white, suspend it in a solution and surely it'll be cloudy.
And no, this wasn't some preconceived notion, or something I invented, I had actually picked it up here on the forum that it can cause problems with clarity. Heck, it even says it on the laminated card that came /w the TF test kit, under the CH testing section.[/quote:23mdfah8] My water is clear all the way down to the main drain. And I have no problem swimming around underwater with my eyes open and no goggles.

Salt is white. So is sugar. Dissolve either one of them in water and it looks clear.

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

RE: Pump/Filter - check for clearance items and closeouts before you jump. Check Craigslist if you are lucky enough to be somewhere with enough sellers to make it worthwhile.

Yeah I'll take a look, kinda in no mans land here, but there is worse, say Burns, OR, or Antelope, ever heard of Fort Rock when you studied the Oregon Trail? That's where that is, Christmas Valley, Antelope area, now that's super bum didly nowhere!! HAHA

I looked at prices on pool stuff in Craigslist in the valley and WOWIE!! CHEAP!!

I've seen OCLT's done with low and high FC - and honestly the advice is a little bit unclear. However if you do have cloudy issues - then I think shocking as a first step is worthwhile - what have you got to lose in trying?

Good idea, just being overly cautious I guess, IE not dumping in money on bleach just before pool season ends & I have to totally drain it, clean it & take it down. But then again, time for a good experiment. I'll rest easier over the winter, knowing that I was able to conquer it and how to do it come spring.
Can't wait for spring! That's huge for me, I like winter, I don't hate summer, just the heat.
Now I don't care as much, cause I HAVE A POOL!!
I LOVE IT!!!

As for cloudy - why you don't see it from above? I'm not sure. At first I thought maybe it was because more than 3.5' was needed to get the cloudiness to show. Is it possible you just stir up the stuff? Have you tried brushing and then looking carefully to see from above if there is any evidence of cloudiness? If not then maybe lighting angles are involved.

I know, weirdness, huh?
Does algae have to be green, brown, black, or a shade thereof, in order to be live algae? Or can white algae also be live algae, not just the dead carcass of the former organism that once was?
Maybe it is the depth.
Yeah, there is definitely stuff down there that gets stirred up, it used to be a white cloud, as we had a minor algae outbreak when we 1st setup the pool, as we didn't have chemicals those first 3 to 4 days or so, even then I was trying to us CL pucks, Cal Hypo IIRC, no Di-Chlor or Tri-Chlor, it never got green or anything, just a little slimy feeling building on the walls.
Dad 'shocked' it with Cal-Hypo, even though I told him not to, he went and did it behind my back because mom told him too. Don't you just love parents? LOL
They so mean well, but sometimes... UGH!

So the vinyl cleaned up and was happy once I started using bleach, thanks!!!
I just figured after that, what was left over was dead algae. After the advice of this forum to use knee-highs, I put one over the venturi vacuum bag to catch the small stuff and I was able to clear it up after several vacuumings. Each time, going very slow the 2nd time, it would make the water nasty cloudy!! But the water proceeded to get clearer & clearer, with no more cloud of white stuff at the bottom, to where it is now.

Now, I get in very very carefully, down the ladder, trying not to disturb the bottom, then I poke my head down and take a look. Cloudy as an evening winter fog in the mountains!! In fact, lots of double vision too.
Water still looks clear at that point from up top, but you swim around for a bit and stir things up, then it gets all nasty looking and murky white.

I forget - do you use scum bags? You may need these to help clear the cloudiness with that filter system.

I was using knee high hosiery on the filter itself, in the pump, 2 of them stretched over the pleats, but I switched to just putting it entirely over the skimmer basket & the bottom of the blue floater that sits in the skimmer unit, with an piece of aluminum wire screen material at the bottom so it disperses the suction across the base of the sock evenly. I only use 1 there now, thinking of putting one more over the filter again.
This catches lots of fine powder stuff and helps keep 99.99% of the bugs and leaves out of the filter, makes for easier cleaning. As noted in my sig.
Is that good enough? Or is a skimmer sock, like one of those DudaDiesel bags better?

I also coated the cartridge with a slurry of Fiber Clear cellulose media for about 4-5 days or so, maybe 3 or 4, have to check my logs. I changed it once it got all dark brown, ugly, nasty looking and the skimmer flow reduced tremendously, maybe 2x over that period. Made the water prettier from up top, even more "polished", but still cloudy underneath, according to the very smart 9yr old niece that checked it out for me, careful not to disturb the bottom. It was like 70 degrees in the water that day, I didn't want to get for any stretch of time, plus I was really busy & didn't want to take time away from work to do it. Too many deadlines that day.
The work of an IT guy is never ending.

But if I'm truly dealing with algae, this explains why it never gets filtered out, that is if it's alive still. Since it's my understanding that live algae won't be filtered out by a filter, only dead algae?

My water is clear all the way down to the main drain. And I have no problem swimming around underwater with my eyes open and no goggles.

Salt is white. So is sugar. Dissolve either one of them in water and it looks clear.

What a beautiful thing that must be!!
So very true, amazing the way solids can dissolve into liquids, become viscous, then regain their solid form when the liquid is evaporated. So cool!
So you think calcium, being lime is the same way?
I ask because salt & sugar are clear crystals under a scope, calcium/lime is not, it's a white powder, like talcum, or cornstarch, both of which form a gelatinous, white liquid when dissolved in water.
Not too sure if Talc is gelatinous, but cornstarch is.

 

[y_not]

Re: Cloudy underwater, maintaining FC, TC same. Crystaly up

Bump on the above stuff.

Also an update, I have begun the shock process this evening. Brought it up to 12ppm, as per the revised Ben Powell chart, I ignored the 13ppm in PoolCalc.
Just going out to check it now, it has been 30min.

I also vacuumed earlier this evening, ended up doing 3/4 of it at total dusk, very little light. But I got most, if not all of the sand/dirt on the bottom, lots of hair, leaf bits and a really funny white powder I usually get, in varying amounts. It kinda clumps up, I'm pretty sure it's cellulose media, as I know some has gotten back into the pool when I have pulled the cartridge to rotate it and didn't clean the housing out, a white cloud just blasted right into the pool out the return. DOH!! :ncool:

So, needless to say, I'm shocking it.

No brush though, except for what's on the vacuum, which I hate cause it adds water to the pool, diluting my CYA. GRRR

PS. Didn't get overly cloudy or dirty during or after vacuuming. A little I think, can't tell cause it's dark and the flashlight isn't too helpful there, looks about like it always does at night with a strong flashlight. Will report later on that.