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Thread: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

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    maryann79's Avatar
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    Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    I'm fine tuning some things in the pool, and my question is: at night, when I come home from work, is there a "best order" of adding chemicals?

    *I need to add more ProTeam Supreme Plus to get my borates up to around 50ppm. Right now they are a little under 40 because I was adding in two batches.
    *The "neutral" ProTeam has increased my TA from 80 to 140, and increased Ph from its happy 7.6 to 7.8-7.9, so I need to add Ph Minus.
    *Nightly chlorine has to be added, of course
    *I have been trying to carefully raise CYA. Right now it looks about 38 to 40. I want it a little higher, maybe around 45.

    We are having guests over on Saturday. Pool looks great. Latest stats are:

    6 pm reading last night:
    FC--5 (usually add bleach to take it up to 8 overnight, and it drops during day)
    CC--0
    Ph--7.8 or 7.9
    TA--140
    CYA--38-40

    So between now & Saturday, besides adding bleach every night, which procedures can I do at night/how many hours apart, etc.?
    thanks.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    I would finish off the borates as soon as you can since you are so close and then work on your TA and pH starting the next day. Let the pump run for 24 hours after adding the borates. Keep adding chlorine on the same schedule that you have been using, just let any chemicals you have added before the chlorine mix for a 1/2 to 1 hour. You can raise the CYA at any time by adding it to a sock and hang it in front of a return.

    To lower the TA make sure you put in the correct amount of borates in the pool calculator because the amount of acid is going to be more to lower the TA. Read Pool School on how to lower TA if needed.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
    Hayward Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG, Jandy LXi 400k BTU NG heater, 350 sq.ft. of Sun Star solar panels, TF-100 Test Kit, Dolphin s300i Cleaner
    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Why not use plain muriatic acid to lower pH?
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    maryann79's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Still afraid of MA. I know it's irrational, but I am klutzy & would rather deal with a powder. It's why I was willing to use the most expensive method for borates, Proteam Supreme Plus. Though, unfortunately it's not real neutral, as it advertises.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    The boric acid you can get from Duda Diesel is not dangerous and is very easy to dump into the pool. I realize I'm a little late telling you this though.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ping
    I would finish off the borates as soon as you can since you are so close and then work on your TA and pH starting the next day. Let the pump run for 24 hours after adding the borates.
    Typically the borates are not added until the TA is in line. Once added they will make it harder to adjust TA as I understand it. I'm not sure if that's accurate - but there are multiple threads where the experts here recommend that approach.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    maryann79's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    The TA was in line before I added the protean supreme plus. It was at 80.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    proteam, i mean.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    She only needs to raise the borates another 10 so I would finish adding the borates and then work on the TA. The ProTeam seemed to be not so "neutral" and raised the TA. What is done is done and now the work for lowering TA.

    For what it is worth, my TA crept up to 130 with all the fill water lately and I dropped the TA down to 90 with only two treatments of acid and aeration, and my borate level is at 50. I have a spill over spa and that helped a lot with aeration.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
    Hayward Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG, Jandy LXi 400k BTU NG heater, 350 sq.ft. of Sun Star solar panels, TF-100 Test Kit, Dolphin s300i Cleaner
    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    The boric acid you can get from Duda Diesel is not dangerous and is very easy to dump into the pool. I realize I'm a little late telling you this though.
    Yeah! I found someplace last week that wanted $60 for the size I needed then about the same $$ for shipping! That's when I just went w/Proteam. Next time I will use this place.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    maryann79's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by ping
    She only needs to raise the borates another 10 so I would finish adding the borates and then work on the TA. The ProTeam seemed to be not so "neutral" and raised the TA. What is done is done and now the work for lowering TA.

    For what it is worth, my TA crept up to 130 with all the fill water lately and I dropped the TA down to 90 with only two treatments of acid and aeration, and my borate level is at 50. I have a spill over spa and that helped a lot with aeration.
    Thanks. Do you like the borates? So far I seem to tell the most difference in the feel. My hair felt softer as soon as it got wet in the pool. I don't think I imagined it.
    Pool: 27' x 52" AG, about 16,500K, cartridge filter
    Waterway 175 sq ft 1.5 hp pump 2-speed
    Deck first of June!

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    I can't say for sure if the borates changed the feel of my water any. I already had 3000 ppm of salt before I added the borates. I do know that my water feels better than any other water I've been in since I've had my own pool. My son says this also and he is in a lot of different pools, plays polo.

    If I were to completely drain the pool I would wait some time before adding borates to the pool again. I would probably go a full year without borates to get a good idea of how my pool compares to how it is now. Originally I added borates 6 months after the pool was built and I now feel that I didn't have full knowledge of how my pool behaved throughout the year. I'm not disappointed in that I added borates what-so-ever, but I wish that I had more of a comparison of my pool with or without borates. I only had to add borates once in the last year and that was due to my stupidity, over filled the pool one day, so the maintenance of keeping the borate level is nil for me.
    16k gal plaster with raised spa, Jandy DEV60 filter, 2 HP 2-speed SHPF Jandy Stealth pump
    Hayward Aqua Rite T-15 SWCG, Jandy LXi 400k BTU NG heater, 350 sq.ft. of Sun Star solar panels, TF-100 Test Kit, Dolphin s300i Cleaner
    Test Kits . Pool Math . Chlorine/CYA Chart . The SLAM Process

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Borates made my water feel better (it wasn't salt when I added them), helped my pH swings and calcium scaling/clouding issues, and after a while made my water unappealing to bugs.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    The Chemistry Store pricing is lower than Duda Diesel (except for 55 pounds), but shipping costs may be different.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek
    The Chemistry Store pricing is lower than Duda Diesel (except for 55 pounds), but shipping costs may be different.
    Duda still comes out cheaper for me in North Carolina. For example, I can get 55lbs from Duda for just over $100 and 50 lbs from Chemistry Store for just over $105. In smaller quantities the disparity grows larger; a 15 lb quantity the Duda is offered at $37.75 w/free shipping and the Chemistry Store option is $27.75 but shipping costs $16.52 bringing the total to is $44.27.

    Still not sure how this compares to Borax/MA cost...
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Slightly higher, but a whole lot less hassle.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!

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    UnderWaterVanya's Avatar
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    Re: Borates, Ph-, CYA, bleach

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    Slightly higher, but a whole lot less hassle.
    I tend to agree by gut - but I need to layout the costs side by side to get a better feel for the delta.
    Inlaws Pool Boy since June 14th 2012, Pool built ~ 2003, In-Ground, 16'x32'
    13500 gal, Vinyl Liner, Fiberglass Slide, TF-100 Test Kit, Hayward 210T
    sand filter, A.O. Smith 1.5HP main pump motor (C48L2N134C1),
    Hayward SuperPump (model ?), Polaris 380 & PB4 Booster Pump

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