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Thread: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

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    y_not's Avatar
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    Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Sorry if this post is long, I tend to get in trouble for that, but I want to be thorough and sure that you have the info you need, at least that which my testing equipment can give you.

    I have the pool shown in my sig. Got it just about a week and a half ago.
    Got a killer deal on it, but pretty poor ATM, hence no fancy test kit, I'm planning on buying the TF-2006 kit as soon as I get the cash. Maybe later this week, maybe next week.
    So for now, all I have is the cheapo FC/TC+Ph OTO/Phenol kit.

    I'm a nerd, a professional one at that. A bit of a skeptic too, I never take anything at face value. So I knew right off the bat that there was a better way than all the BS in the stores and the pool shops. I wanted to go for a minimalist approach, the least chemicals possible. So I haven't put a lot of gunk in it, although my dad did shock it /w cal-hypo, behind my back. I was pretty irritated about that, but I got over it.

    Hence I found this forum, crawling the Interwebs using the Googles.
    I'm totally sticking /w the BBB method. In fact, that's what my parents used when I was a wee lad back in the late 80's, long before this forum ever existed. A local pool shop told them to use it, HAHA! Love that liberal hippie land I'm from.

    So here's what I have rockin'.
    Oh, and I have read the Pool School pretty extensively, but not all of it. The base stuff, and a little more, as I had found it after I found the pool solutions website, which I read nearly top to bottom, the one by Ben Powell, whom supports the BBB method as well.

    Filled this puppy up, she's all level and such, dug out a dirt spot for her and leveled the grade.
    Settled on Arm & Hammer Clear Balance tabs (They have stabilizer in them, what, I don't know, I'm assuming it's CYA, but can't confirm.) and HTH 3" chlorine tabs, yellow lid, no stabilizer. *Note, I will stop using these once she's balanced and just stick /w the BBB method from here on out.
    It's genius!! I always love sticking it to the man, beating them at their own game.

    Over the course of the next 2, or 3 days, let's say 3 ish, I did the following.
    Probably put about 2 of those A&H tabs in the skimmer, 1 at a time, as I didn't have a floater. No one sells cute floaters here, what on earth....???
    I JUST WANT A DUCK!!!! GRRR lol
    Then I followed it up /w a couple of the HTH CL tabs, again, in the skimmer, never mixing them, just alternating. So a total of 1:1 for the 2 different tab types.
    Water started getting cloudy & the liner a little slimy after a few days of that. Could still see through the water, it was just not clear, it was murky.
    Kept the filter crazy clean the whole time. Tweaking flow rate by adjusting things, skimmer basket, hose direction, pump elevation, yadda yadda. Runs better now.

    I did research, discovered these Intex pump & filtration systems aren't so good. Only about 30-40microns, 30 at best.
    So as per recommendation I got some of my diatomaceous earth I use in the garage and put that in there.... BIG MISTAKE!! HAHA
    I didn't use much, maybe 1/4cup, but I didn't know there were different forms of the stuff. OOPS! This was a large grain, non heat treated form of it, pretty much it's natural form, just ground to small pebble size. Like aquarium pebble rock size.

    So I got that all cleaned out of there, I promise, filter's clean, pump, hoses, etc.. Vacuumed too. Never got in the pump impeller, made sure of that /w a screen I made for the pump. So I researched some more, can't use the DE made for bugs, not heat treated, can't use food grade, again, not heat treated to 1000f and can't get the pool stuff locally, nor the cellulose powder. Podunk, backwater area!!

    Then I broke down & bought an ugly Pentair blue floater & I mean uuugly!! Looks like a space station design gone wrong. HA
    Didn't want to wait for one in the mail, needed it NOW!! So had to buy it here. =\
    Popped an HTH in there and let her rip, 1st anchoring it so it didn't hang out by the skimmer, but changed my mind on that, doesn't hang out after my tweaks to the pump & hoses.
    Also made myself another floater for the A&H 3" tabs, not paying $15 for another local ugly one, used a half gallon cleaned out bleach jug and hot glued a sour cream container onto the bottom of it /w holes in her. Works great!! Even tilts sideways once the tablet is gone. Yankee ingenuity at its finest.
    The whole time, testing it morning, day & night, at least 3 or more times/day, since day one of filling her up. Used about 2 or 3 more of each tab. So a total of about 5 tabs of each kind.

    The FC/TC levels on my OTO kit showed little to no chlorine.
    Ph seemed pretty good, but honestly, I'm not sure. I have attached a link to a photo of the test.
    I'm not color blind, far from it, but I'm having a heck of a time matching up the sample to the color bar on the Ph side. The CL side is easy.
    The Ph test is just the wrong density, or pigment level to match anything on the right above Ph 7.2.
    I think it's 7.8/8.2, but I'm not sure and I HATE being unsure on things like this, things that are critical.
    Hopefully someone here can tell by experience and hopefully if you can see the graduations in the photo, it doesn't show up the best, what my Ph levels are. I know what to do with them if they need to go up/down, just this dang test!! UGH!!
    Are the bars on the Taylor kit matched better than this, or is it just the nature of the beast?
    I even read on here that the amount of water doesn't matter, just the drops>water ratio. So I knocked the level down by 3 bars and thus 3 drops. So it was still a 1:1 ratio, it made it a bit easier, better, but not enough for it to match up still.

    I can't test for CYA, as I'm not spending $25ish dollars at Walnasty on the inferior HTH 6-way kit, just so I can get 2 test out of it for the CYA levels, that's $12.50/test. YIKES!!
    I'll save my money for the Taylor.

    The problem is, she's not holding chlorine. After having shocked it /w cal-hypo 2 nights in a row, mix in bucket then pour around the pool method, with about 1/5 of the 1lb bag left and it hasn't held chlorine past overnight. I then used the pool calculator to raise the chlorine, /w 1 cup of 6% bleach into the skimmer, by 2.1ppm from at or near zero, virtually no color on the OTO test before I added the CL, that showed a reading in the 2.1 range on the OTO test after checking it about an hour later. But the next day, it was all gone.

    BTW, somewhere between this and the last shock treatment, yeah I know, use bleach instead, but that's before I knew & someone butted in and used shock, I wasn't ready to use it yet. Well, the slimyness did go away.
    I have also been running the pump 24/7, periodically checking it and cleaning it, also listening to it to let it tell me as well when to clean/check it. She likes to get airbubbles in the inlet hose from the skimmer, so I have to shut her down, bleed it, then fire it back up, ease the bubbles into the pump from the hose, then do it once more & it's fine.
    I have placed 2 knee-high pantyhose over the filter, not sure how much it's helped to clear the microscopic particles in the water, as I really don't think it's all that fine, but BOY HOWDY! does it stop the gunk from getting into the cartridge pleats.
    Me WIKEY!! WOTS & WOTS!! Just hose of the bugs & put her back in.
    As of today, it seems noticeably clearer since I put the sock around the filter about a day ago.

    I know enough to know why & how to fix it, but reading conflicting information.
    I thought I could just buy CYA, use the sock method and the right amount to get up to 40PPM, about 18oz.
    I'm assuming that since the chlorine is leaching almost immediately in the sun, that my CYA is pretty much nonexistent, so I should just slam it up to 40ppm, or maybe like 35ppm to be safe, then check it once I get the Taylor. Yes, no?
    However, then I was reading in the Beginner's Guide For Seasonal/Temporary pools, that you need to shock it if it's below 2ppm and I have also read on the bottle of CYA powder, as well as I get the idea in that guide, that you need to have chlorine in there to add the CYA. Then I became unsure as to what order of steps to take.
    So even though I bought the CYA @ Walnasty last night, I just left it till I could post here. My nerdy brain tells me that the only reason I'd need chlorine in there /w the CYA as I add it, is to bond to it so it dissolves, atomically, not the granules & distributes properly into the water. But on the other hand, I tend to think that's irrelevant as to when it bonds, seeing as only algae can break it down, so it's going to bond either way, once you start adding the chlorine, so long as it's there.

    Seems a waste to put chlorine in it, when the sun's just going to leach it, and keep having to add it to maintain it, that is until your CYA fully dissolves. I know it takes a week to show up on tests, some sort of covalent/ionic bond I assume? But it starts to work as soon as the powder dissolves into liquid, then it begins bonding to the chlorine right away, yeah? IE. once the sock contents are toast, I can start adding bleach to bring up the FC/TC.
    Do I need to do it at night, the CYA, or can I do it in the day?
    Also, Can we swim in it while the sock hangs out?

    BTW, we're at a 3k-3.5k elevation here, on the leeward side of the Cascades, a 10-12k+ft mountain range, so it's BLAZING sun in the summer months, very arid/dry climate, you can literally feel it baking your skin, like a blast from an freshly opened oven door. Obviously this varies with temperature, and humidity. So needless to say, the sun here is very strong, as opposed to the valley @ 30ft elev. HAHA!

    Thanks for all your help & this AWESOME!! forum, thanks for reading my lengthy post too.
    Have a fabulous eve./day.

    PS. If any of the facts I have written, and believed to be correct, aside from outright questions, of course, please feel free to educate me further. I'm freely open to that, as long as it's done in a manner in which one doesn't assume I'm unintelligent.
    But I have been known to be espically dense sometimes.

    Click for photos of Ph test.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Getting a full set of water test results is really important. If you don't have a test kit, perhaps you could get a pool store to test your water for you. Without test results you are just making wild guesses and things are extremely likely to go wrong.

    You need some CYA in the water or you lose all of your chlorine to sunlight very quickly. If you just filled the pool, CYA will be zero, though the trichlor tablets will be raising CYA very slowly. Before you have CYA in the pool, just add 2 ppm of chlorine each evening.

    Your PH looks like 7.8 to me, though it could be a little higher.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Wow. I think I am 10% through your post.

    First thought, I think HTH tablets have copper in them. Not good. They also have CYA. Stop using them.

    Edit: 50% now, All those tablets have added CYA. Use poolcalculator to know how much.

    Edit 2: finished. I basically got out of that was that you are flying blind and need a test kit to know what to do next. Estimate the CYA you have added, add more to put you around 30-40ppm and then just add some bleach everyday until you have a kit.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    There's got to be a pool store in Bend, they may even have a K-2006 on the shelf due to the possibility that they're the only source for industry professionals in the area. Even here there's only a few pool stores and most of them cater to professionals since the number of residential pools is low. All that I've been to do carry the k-2006 and reagent refills.

    Otherwise, just get the TF100. It's a far better value than the K-2006 anyway.

    CYA is not dependent on chlorine, you can put it in without chlorine in. Put it in a sock, and go squish. if you squish often enough tonight you should be able to get most of it dissolved.

    Once it's dissolved and gone from the sock you can assume it's in the pool and dose accordingly (pool calculator). You may want to take into account (in fact you should) all the powdered and solid chlorine you've added that has CYA. The trichlor tabs should all contain CYA, although you indicated that the HTH ones you have do not. You might want to re-verify this.

    In all honesty, the HTH 6 way kit is not the worst kit in the world and if you're not going to order online or get a good one locally it's better than nothing. You'll have to add some reagents to it to get the FAS-DPD portion which may be available locally (again, try Bend) or just order from TFTestkits.net.

    All that said... just get the TF100 if you can. It ships fast from the east coast, but apparently there's a new west coast distributor in CA now. You could have the kit by Wednesday or Thursday if they ship it tomorrow.
    Where kids swim in 54 degree water, turn blue, and giggle happily cuz they got a POOL!
    Year 3 BBB -15' x 48" Intex Metal Frame - Was using (2) 1000gph Intex cartridge filters (see Full time pumping Intex). 2012, converted to 1600gph and sand filter+SWG = Sand filter love affair!
    Don't waste time and energy looking for a better value on test kits, the TF100 is the best deal around. I did the looking and spent the extra money, but you don't have to make the same mistake. Just go here: TFTestkits. I use Pool Calculator for min/max, and shocking chlorine levels.

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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    @JasonLion, yeah I knew you were going to want full tests, but I jost don't have them. Can't afford the cost of the kit right now, there's just no money coming in from the biz atm, the bad part about working for one's self. :P

    Not using Trichlor, I'm using this: HTH 3-in-1 Chlorinating Skimmer Tablets
    According to the MSDS, I don't see anything in it that would add CYA. Just salt, chlorine via cal-hypo & some other chlorine salts, as well as chemicals that should increase the Ph a small amount.

    The only source of CYA added to my pool would be from the Arm & Hammer tabs, they are listed as 13.45% (Clarifier & Other Ingredients). Assuming that's all CYA, I have used the equivalency of a little under 3/4 of a CYA tab. But I'm sure it's muuuuuch less than that, since it says "other ingredients". Can't find their MSDS, not listed on Dwight & Church's site, and it's too late to call them.

    @JBLIzzle,
    Sorry, warned you it was long. >.<
    I suck at editing for brevity or condensing, I just throw it all down, make sure it reads well & then I'm done.
    Thanks for reading it.... see above answer to Jason.

    @Frogabog,
    One would think so. But every pool specific place I have called here has to order said things. This area is soooo incredibly backwater, it's not even funny. Their prices are OUTRAGOUS too!! I'm afraid to even ask, but I guess I will.

    With the HTH kit, it's all about blowing money on something I know I'll replace in a week or so. Besides that, it doesn't test for CYA below 30ppm, so I know for a fact it isn't going to register a thing, if it were that high, I would at least retain some chlorine.

    I'm just going to wait for the Taylor, yeah, I know the TF-100 is a better value, but it's also quite a bit more expensive, for my budget at least. I may do the TF-100 anyway, we'll have to see once the money comes in.
    As for the HTH tabs, unless I'm miss-reading the MSDS sheet, not exactly a chem expert so one of those may, but I doubt it seeing as they market a separate product with that in it, and knowing for a fact I bought the ones without the stabilizer, then no, they have no source of CYA in those tabs. The reason I bought them without the stabilizer, is I knew that'd be a waste of money, seeing as the A&H tabs have it in then and plus I have seen others use those tabs and they're awful. Price wise, run for your money that is.

    Since I haven't a "cool" kit to check it, I'm going to does her /w 30ppm of CYA and call it a day till I get a test kit. I'll check /w Dwight & Church tomorrow to see what the PPM yield of CYA is from their A&H Clear Balance tabs.

    When should I add the CL, like 24hrs after I put in the sock, or 24 hrs. after it's dissolved?


    Thanks for all your input guys and putting up with me while I only have a poor mans test kit. :P
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    You are correct the HTH does not have CYA. The cal-hypo add calcium and again I am pretty sure those are adding copper ... the stuff that can stain the pool and turn hair green.

    What is the main ingredient of the a&h tablets ... the clarifier and other ingredients are not CYA.

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    You need to add chlorine every day, CYA or no CYA. Without CYA, add 2 ppm in the evening. Starting the day after you add CYA, switch to raising the FC level to the mid to high end of the range that is appropriate for the CYA level you are targeting.

    No, no copper listed in the MSDS, but quite a bit of epson salt and regular salt and not all that much chlorine. Bleach, or even regular cal-hypo, would be noticeably less expensive
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    I guess I should have checked for myself about the copper ... there was just another post taking about it ... different tablets apparently.

    EDIT: {For future reference, the HTH® Dual Action Chlorinating Tablets are the ones that contain copper}

    Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    The main ingredient is sodium bicarbonate, ie. baking soda. So CYA is not both a stabilizer & clarifier, just stabilizer huh? Trippy, could never really verify that for sure, but didn't spend a ton of time digging on that one. The A&H tabs say they eliminate the need for stabilizer, so I just assumed the tabs had it in them.

    I just added 13.5/14oz of 6% bleach to it. Pool calc says 2-2.1ppm for mine.
    I never really wanted to use the HTH tabs, but the family vetoed me on that. I wanted to just use pure, generic chlorine tabs at the time. That is before I found the BBB method.

    Why the salts? Is that the softner for the skin, or are they banking on the fact that the sun will naturally convert it over time into chlorine?
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    CYA is just Cyanuric Acid. It's not a clarifier at all. In Pool School, there's a good deal of information about how CYA works and why it's important. Take a stroll...

    Some people add salt to the water for the feel. To about 2000ppm. For SWG pools the salt level is higher, 3000ppm+ (although mine is apparently happy at 1850ppm). Personally I don't care for the taste at higher levels, so 2000ppm would be more than plenty for my tastes if I was adding salt for feel.

    Sodium Hypochlorite (liquid chlorine) leaves a residual of sodium after it's been consumed. It's a small amount and would take some time to rise to 2000ppm of course.
    Where kids swim in 54 degree water, turn blue, and giggle happily cuz they got a POOL!
    Year 3 BBB -15' x 48" Intex Metal Frame - Was using (2) 1000gph Intex cartridge filters (see Full time pumping Intex). 2012, converted to 1600gph and sand filter+SWG = Sand filter love affair!
    Don't waste time and energy looking for a better value on test kits, the TF100 is the best deal around. I did the looking and spent the extra money, but you don't have to make the same mistake. Just go here: TFTestkits. I use Pool Calculator for min/max, and shocking chlorine levels.

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    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    I just looked up what specifically clarifier is, I see now, my bad. I was confusing it with the CYA bottle i have, saying that it's also a "conditioner". My brain said, oh, conditioner/clarifier, same T'ing. NOT!!
    Sorry about that.
    Clarifier looks kinda bad & unnecessary from what I see on these forums. So I'll never touch that stuff without asking 1st and checking everything else.

    I finally got ahold of the MSDS for the A&H Clear Balance tabs, it was on the web all along, just hidden in Church & Dwight's (got that backwards before) website.

    Here's the URL to their MSDS. A&H MSDS Search.
    And the Arm & Hammer Clear Balance MSDS itself.

    So all it has is Sodium Bicarbonate, for raising Alkalinity & Sodium Carbonate (Soda Ash), for raising pH. Doesn't have anything else in it, although I think there's a blue dye not listed and maybe some fragrance, as it kinda smells like Kool-Aid.

    I put enough bleach 6% in last night, after dark, to raise it to between 2-2.1ppm. I don't have a container with exact enough marks to accurately measure the 13.5oz required for 2ppm @ my pool capacity. So I got it as exact as I could, IE. may be 13, or 14oz instead of the target 13.5oz.
    Tested it 1.5hrs, a bit after 11pm and got a reading of about 0.8ppm FC, half way between 0.6 & 1.0, so I averaged it as per forum recommendations.
    Three people, 1 of which doesn't take a shower very often, *not me*, swam in it yesterday in the heat. So I'm assuming the chlorine was being consumed due to the presence of organic matter, since there was no sun to leach it. Right?

    The CYA is basically done dissolving, I did see it coming out the return as a cloudy white stream, is that OK? When does it start acting?

    This morning I had 0.6ppm FC as of about 9am, 3hrs or so after sunrise. About 1pm, I had no FC at all.
    Should I shock it with lots of CL tonight? My kit only goes up to 5ppm on FC though.
    But I'm thinking of using Taylor's approach of diluting it 3:1 with tap water, so I can test a high level on my lower kit. Whadya think?

    So to recap.
    *The 2/2.1ppm CL I added went down to 0.8ppm in 1.5hrs. - Did it get used up due to presence of organic matter?
    *CYA - Is the cloudy stream out the pump when I squeeze it normal?
    *CYA - How soon does it start being able to protect the CL in the water?
    *Should I shock it tonight, if so how much 12ppm?

    Thx everyone.

    BTW frogabog, super cool red-neck style pump setup. Yankee ingenuity BRO!! Love it!!
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    BTW frogabog, super cool red-neck style pump setup. Yankee ingenuity BRO!!
    BRO-ette....have to be politically correct around here!
    Dave S.
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh
    BTW frogabog, super cool red-neck style pump setup. Yankee ingenuity BRO!!
    BRO-ette....have to be politically correct around here!
    Frogabog is a mom? EXCELLENT... Super cool!! You go gurl!
    Nice to meet you mother frog. *holds out hand to shake*

    BTW, I really liked the comment about your daughter being your little pool vacuum-er, with her snorkel & goggles to see the bottom. Your "pool slave" or something, that you referred to her as. HEHE :P

    More ladies should be involved in this stuff, but glad to see that there are as many here as I have seen, more than I can say elsewhere in other industry specific forums. Everyone should enjoy this, not just the guys. I'm very "gender equality" oriented in my beliefs.

    T.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  14. Back To Top    #14
    frogabog's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    LOL - yep, just a gurl here on the rainy side. For anyone wondering... my climate is nothing like y_not's climate. We are marine and valley (rain) but just over the Cascades is High Desert. About 2 hours east of me. Too far to jump in the car and lend a hand with testing, sorry.

    Slave girl won't vacuum much anymore. Moms only get slaves while the slaving is fun.

    I'd call your CYA a duck now and begin chlorinating for the level of CYA you targeted. 40ppm right? If so, use the pool calculator and dose the pool to 7ppm tonight. (tip: hover over the field where you get the oz result and look at the wide field mid calculator and at the top. hovering will show conversion to US volumes. i.e. cups).

    If you test tomorrow afternoon (sun off pool) and it's below 3ppm you've got a problem and will need to begin shocking. If it's 3ppm or above, rinse and repeat. Daily.

    Without a test kit this would be the only way I can think of to determine if it needs to be shocked.
    Where kids swim in 54 degree water, turn blue, and giggle happily cuz they got a POOL!
    Year 3 BBB -15' x 48" Intex Metal Frame - Was using (2) 1000gph Intex cartridge filters (see Full time pumping Intex). 2012, converted to 1600gph and sand filter+SWG = Sand filter love affair!
    Don't waste time and energy looking for a better value on test kits, the TF100 is the best deal around. I did the looking and spent the extra money, but you don't have to make the same mistake. Just go here: TFTestkits. I use Pool Calculator for min/max, and shocking chlorine levels.

  15. Back To Top    #15
    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Frogabog,

    Yes, that's correct, our climates couldn't be more different.
    I'm actually a valley boy, born & raised in Eugene, OR and got stuck over here. It has grown on me, but I miss the valley a lot! They both have their pluses & minuses, but I think the minuses here seem to be more.

    That was very sweet of you Mrs. Frog, to even consider such an offer, I'd love to invite you over, but indeed it is quite a drive. 2hrs I think is even a best case scenario time frame. HAHA
    If you're ever in the area though, let me know, I'd love to say hi.

    Added enough bleach to equal 7ppm last night, an hour later, still holding, this morning @ 10am, still holding & just now @ 1:30pm, still holding. Looks like that CYA did the trick. I'll test it as evening sets in.

    I can't quite tell for sure, because my kit doesn't go that high, but it looks to be at least 1 shade, I'm almost thinking 2 darker than the top 5ppm that it reads. So looks to be around 7ppm.
    Can I ask where that magic number came from, the reasoning for it? Just wondering so I can learn is all. I trust you're judgement.

    PS. I shot for 30ppm, since I have no CYA test, and wanted to be on the safe side, so unless there's some in our tap water, then I'm right @ 30ppm, to be safe. When I get the Taylor, I'll test for it and add more if it's leaching in this crazy sun we're having.
    Gosh, it's BEEEEEAUTIFUL here today, you should see it! I do love our skies, starry milky way nights & beautiful crystal blue days.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  16. Back To Top    #16
    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    An update, sorry, been super busy and haven't had time to post. Been reading and taking care of my pool though. Boy, oh boy is the water starting to clear up, it has been a bit murky, not super bad, but hard to see under water, definitely not crystal clear, that's for sure. Been running the pump 24/7 and cleaning the filter as needed for the past week. It was a slightly noticeable improvement Wed., yesterday a little more and today a marked improvement. I vacuumed it, which stirred up a lot of the murky white stuff and got a lot of gunk off the bottom, just daily kinda gunk, from getting in/out of the pool, nothing serious.

    So here are my levels and what I have done.
    Note: This may seem long, but the levels make it look long.

    Oh, one other thing, after having added the CYA, after having dissolved that day, I went swimming and noticed my eyes were a little stingy when I went underwater /w them open, but not too bad. I could tolerate it, it was just annoying.
    Checked the pH when I was done & it was at 7.2 or slightly under.
    Went back up later, probably from adding the CL???

    Here's what I have
    7/26/12
    9:45pm
    FC: 1.8
    TC: 2.4
    PH: 7.7

    Added 8.2oz bleach @ 6% to bring it up to 3.0ppm

    7/27/12
    12:30am
    FC: 3.0
    TC: Light not bright enough inside to get an accurate reading on this I felt.
    PH: 7.7 (Between 2 bars 7.6 & 7.8)

    11:50am
    FC: 2.25 (half way between 1.5 & 3.0)
    TC: Sorry, skipped it. It's the whole waiting thing, sometimes it takes too long for me to decide on the FC color.
    pH: 7.7

    2:40pm
    FC: 1.25
    TC: skipped
    pH: 7.7/7.8 (found butterfly's extremely helpful color key.)

    Added 19oz. bleach @ 6% to raise FC to 4ppm

    5:50pm (Pre-swim of the day)
    FC: 4.0ppm
    TC/pH: didn't bother.

    9:30pm (Post 2.5hr swim & vacuum prior as noted above.)
    FC: 4.0
    TC: 5.0
    pH: 7.8 (using butterfly's guide due to poor color matching compared to color key.)


    All in all, the water felt way better, didn't burn my eyes at all. Bottom is actually squeaky, not slimy.


    It's my understanding that the difference between FC & TC is kinda like a CC indicator, with what I have to test with right now, does that mean I should shock the pool?
    I can test above my kit's 5.0ppm on FC/TC by doing the dilute & multiply method, so I'm thinking I could use this to monitor my target FC for shock and use TC to watch my CC, ie. how much algae is being eaten.
    Think that'll work?
    Gotta work with what I have here. I is poor atm, remembers? :P

    Or should I just leave it and keep the chlorine up at normal levels?
    Can't monitor chlorine loss as in the FAS-DPD kit, so I can't really tell if Im' loosing chlorine from too little CYA, or from algae. CYA should be @ 30ppm.

    I bought some muriatic acid, hunted and hunted for the good stuff. Found a 1gal jug of 20baum/31.45% for $6.99 @ Big-R.
    I think that's a pretty good deal.
    So should I lower it to 7.5 so my chlorine is more effective, since I'm running a low CYA?

    Trying to keep the CL as low as I can get away with because I'm very sensitive to it. It drys my skin out & can make me itch if it's too high, whereas others in the same pool don't have that problem.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Join Date
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    Location
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    I'd add enough M.A. to get your pH to about 7.4-7.5..your pH is a bit high yet.

    If your FC is truely 4 and TC 5. that means you have organics in your pool, and you NEED to get your chlorine up to shock level UNTIL you don't lose any Chlorine in an overnight loss test. You shouldn't be losing chlorine with a CYA level of 30..so it's most likely algae in your pool
    33' x 52" Swim and Play Inc. PARAGON AGP. Hayward H200 Heater. Hayward Power-Flo LX 1.5hp pump. Sta-Rite Cristal Flo T-210WF Sand Filter. Stenner 45M5 chlorine pump

  18. Back To Top    #18
    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    flyweed,

    Thanks for the reply.
    So I added enough M.A to bring it down from 7.8pH to 7.4pH, according to the PoolCalc. Doesn't take much in this pool, only 4.6oz. Apparently she's more dense than water, so it weighs a bit more.
    GOOOOLLLLYYY!!! I know it's an acid, I was expecting a rather choking vapor, but my oh my!! That's intense!!
    Don't slosh at all, which I didn't much, close cap ASAP! between level checks on the measurements and blast a fan @ ya. Even just pouring into the pool, very, very slowly, you need to get as close to the water as you can or it blasts you with it's lovely vapors, even just from that little amt. a bit over 1/2 a cup.

    Out of curiosity, how long before it's safe to swim?
    I put it in front of the jet as instructed, is that OK for a smaller vinyl AGP like mine?

    Yeah, the TC was definitely higher than the FC. Of course precisely how much is difficult to tell with an OTO kit like this. BTW, is it supposed to go clear if I leave the water & OTO in the tester over night?
    This afternoon the levels were:

    FC: 0.8 (1/2 way between 0.6 & 1.0)
    TC: 0.6 (After letting sit approx 2min)
    pH: same before M.A.
    That's a little funky on the FC/TC!

    Can I still loose this much CL if I have heat in the low to mid 90's /w strong blazing sun @ a 3500ft elevation?
    We effectively live in the mountains with very little to no humidity, depending on time of day.

    Can I have live algae in there and it be only somewhat murky white, so I can see the bottom, it's just not clear and the bottom/sides squeaky clean, as in the liner literally squeaks when rubbed?

    Thx.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  19. Back To Top    #19
    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Any ideas on the CL loss to high UV /w 30ppm CYA?
    As well as my algae and OTO CL test questions?

    No mega hurry at this point, just don't want to get lost in the shuffle.

    BTW, I put some Cellulose Fiber in the filter, not much effect over the past 12-18hrs. maybe a little, but I didn't have much in there. So I soaked my cart, which was pretty clean anyway, in soap for a while, rinsed it off till squeaky, then tried again, this time /w more cellulose. How long before I should see a difference, and I'm supposed to wait till the output is @ 50% or so as my indicator for when to clean it out & start over, right?

    Thanks for answering my questions thus far, I look forward to what further knowledge everyone may have in store for me.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  20. Back To Top    #20
    y_not's Avatar
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    Re: Need to add CYA, not holding CL (FC/TC)

    Well, good news with the cellulose fiber, I soaked the filter & re-did it. I just didn't put in enough before. This time I put in a little less than 3/4cup for this 5sq ft. cartridge filter. Coated it nicely this time and is doing a great job. Already had to clean it out once.

    My pH went back up to 7.8 within 24hrs after adding the M.A to bring it down to 7.4 and reading as such 30min after adding the M.A.
    So this means my alkalinity is high, right?
    I have no way to test for this right now.

    I have just added the same amount of M.A. about 30min ago. Will test to verify again.
    Still loosing chlorine in the morning, not afternoon or night.

    As far as the TC being higher than FC, that issue seems to have gone away since I vacuumed. It was mostly our sandy dirt from feet, some tiny leaf fragments, some left over DE chunks still and that was about it. Oh and sticky yellow/orange pollen, it's like glue!

    In fact, I'm reading a lower TC than FC once I let it sit for the required 2min. Odd!
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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